What's the penalty?

[bluenose1940]

During a frame this morning. I went in-off at the black end of the table. My opponent was stood at the baulk end and so I took the white out of the pocket and rolled it down to him, it rolled into the baulk area but my opponent immediately played his shot without putting the white into the D area.

I assume that this is a foul but what is the penalty?

[DeanH]

"Four penalty points or the value of ball on if higher"


Officially:
Sec 3.11 Penalty Values
The following acts are fouls and incur a four penalty points unless higher penalty points are indicated in paragraphs (a) to (d) below:
(a) Value of the ball on by: ...
(v) playing improperly from in hand, including at the opening stroke;

[bluenose1940]

Thank you Dean. as we didn't know the rule I didn't take any penalty points.

[DeanH]

Thank you Dean. as we didn't know the rule I didn't take any penalty points.

ah no! always take the points even just 4 - could mean the win at the end

[arnold jones]

With the cue ball in hand at the start of a frame, or after being pocketed or forced off the table, the striker plays the white with it not being within the D.
It is a foul shot, 4 points to opponent.
Is the white ball now in play or still in hand?

[DeanH]

With the cue ball in hand at the start of a frame, or after being pocketed or forced off the table, the striker plays the white with it not being within the D.
It is a foul shot, 4 points to opponent.
Is the white ball now in play or still in hand?

If a stroke has been played the cue ball is no longer in-hand and the next stroke played from where it comes to rest... unless of course it is forced off the table

[arnold jones]

Rule 9b suggests that white remains in hand until played legally from in hand.
Has it been played legally if outside the D??

[DeanH]

Rule 9b suggests that white remains in hand until played legally from in hand.
Has it been played legally if outside the D??

Out playing at the mo will have a look later to refer 😁

[DeanH]

Rule 9b suggests that white remains in hand until played legally from in hand.
Has it been played legally if outside the D??

I had a chat with a pro-ref associate of mine about your thought of Sec 2.9(b); his answer was that the stroke was legal (cue ball hit with the tip) so the cue ball is now in-play - regardless of its placement on the playing area (outside of the D). The stroke was legal, the cue-ball was played legally, cue-ball in-play in the scenario in question.

So my initial response is valid for this scenario:

If a stroke has been played the cue ball is no longer in-hand and the next stroke played from where it comes to rest... unless of course it is forced off the table

I have asked about S2.9(b)(i) specifically and if anything comes back I will post here

[arnold jones]

Thank you very much for you response.
I find it a little strange that playing the cue ball (in hand) from outside the D is both a foul stroke and a legal stroke.

[DeanH]

Thank you very much for you response.
I find it a little strange that playing the cue ball (in hand) from outside the D is both a foul stroke and a legal stroke.

hahahah

well, most Fouls start with a legal stroke

[arnold jones]

To further complicate matters , I ask the question:
If the payer who plays the cue ball (in hand) from outside the D and misses the ball on, can a Foul and a Miss be called, and if so, if replacing balls, is the white replaced outside the D or is it in hand?
Forgive me for being a pain.

[arnold jones]

A legal stroke can become a foul, but can a foul stroke then become legal?

[DeanH]

To further complicate matters , I ask the question:
If the payer who plays the cue ball (in hand) from outside the D and misses the ball on, can a Foul and a Miss be called, and if so, if replacing balls, is the white replaced outside the D or is it in hand?
Forgive me for being a pain.

If the ball-on is not hit first then a Miss is called.

(1) Foul for striking the in-hand cue-ball outside the D.
(2) Miss for not hitting the ball-on first.

And then the non-offending player asks for putting the balls back; the cue-ball (and any other balls moved) will be replaced and the offending player will play again NOT in-hand, and the stroke will NOT be a foul this time. Ball-on will be the same as before.

[arnold jones]

I have reservations about your interpretations of the rules relating to playing the in hand cue-ball from outside the D, as mentioned previously.

Rule S2.9(b)(i) states that: The cue-ball remain in hand until it is played legally from in hand.
and
Rule S2.6(c) states that: A stroke is legal when no infringement of the Rules is committed.

This suggests to me that if the in hand cue-ball is incorrectly played from outside the D ( an infringement and therefore not a legal stroke) then the cue-ball remains in hand and not therefore in play.

Am I misinterpreting the Rules??