Snooker on a cluster of red?

[LD50]

I've tried a search for the answer but nothing relevant turns up so I hope this is not repetitive.
If, after I foul (which I did!!!), my opponent is faced with a tight cluster of reds, and a color ball is between them and the cue ball. He can see both sides of the red cluster but not both sides any one red. Is this a free ball situation?
To visualize it, after a foul, picture 6 reds set up as if at the start of a game and the pink on the pink spot. If the cue ball ends up on the brown spot, is there a free ball?

[akofb]

Yes that’s a free ball. Your opponent needs to see both sides of a single red not opposite sides of the cluster

[DeanH]

This scenario question comes up frequently, to decide if a snooker exists is to judge each Red on its own, imaging all other balls are removed, if every red is snookered when considered on its own then there is a snooker with the cluster - IF a single Red is NOT snookered, there is no snooker.

You DO NOT take the edge of one red on one side of the cluster and the other edge of another Red on the the other side of the cluster to judge if a snooker exists.

In your example, you can not hit the edge of any single Red so a snooker exists and the option of a free ball is available

[Delphi]

I will never understand this as it's too confusing, i keep reading conflicting texts, maybe it's because i'm not native English.

He can see both sides of the red cluster but not both sides any one red.

You DO NOT take the edge of one red on one side of the cluster and the other edge of another Red on the the other side of the cluster to judge if a snooker exists

So in the first post LD50 says the cueball is on the brown spot and you can hit both sides of a 6 red triangle, What i read in DeanH's post first it would mean this is NOT a snooker and no free ball situation but it is still concluded as a Free ball?
I must be getting old as it's so confusing.

[DeanH]

I will never understand this as it's too confusing, i keep reading conflicting texts, maybe it's because i'm not native English.



So in the first post LD50 says the cueball is on the brown spot and you can hit both sides of a 6 red triangle, What i read in DeanH's post first it would mean this is NOT a snooker and no free ball situation but it is still concluded as a Free ball?
I must be getting old as it's so confusing.

Hi Delphi
Hope you are well

Always remember that to judge whether there is a snooker is to take all Reds INDIVIDUALLY, do not take multiple Reds together; image that each Red is on its own on the table and judge whether the Cue Ball can hit both edges of THAT ball. And then judge the next Red if it is snookered, etc.
If ANY single RED ball is NOT snookered, there is NO snooker situation.
If ALL Reds are snookered, then there is a Snooker situation.
And from then:
No Snooker - No - Free Ball option.
Snooker - Yes - Free Ball option

From LD50 scenario 6 Red triangle behind the Pink and after after a Foul, Cue Ball on Brown spot - in this scenario the Cue Ball can NOT hit both edges of any single RED - Pink being the snookering ball. so in this scenario, Foul, Free Ball option as all Reds are snookered.
I am assuming that the 6 Reds are like the triangle of Reds at a break off in say a 6-red match, (as said in the OP)
BUT you have to judge each Red individually in all situations.

I hope this makes sense

[LD50]

Hi Delphi
Hope you are well

Always remember that to judge whether there is a snooker is to take all Reds INDIVIDUALLY, do not take multiple Reds together; image that each Red is on its own on the table and judge whether the Cue Ball can hit both edges of THAT ball. And then judge the next Red if it is snookered, etc.
If ANY single RED ball is NOT snookered, there is NO snooker situation.
If ALL Reds are snookered, then there is a Snooker situation.
And from then:
No Snooker - No - Free Ball option.
Snooker - Yes - Free Ball option

From LD50 scenario 6 Red triangle behind the Pink and after after a Foul, Cue Ball on Brown spot - in this scenario the Cue Ball can NOT hit both edges of any single RED - Pink being the snookering ball. so in this scenario, Foul, Free Ball option as all Reds are snookered.
I am assuming that the 6 Reds are like the triangle of Reds at a break off in say a 6-red match, (as said in the OP)
BUT you have to judge each Red individually in all situations.

I hope this makes sense

YES! Thanks DeanH, That explains it perfectly!

[Delphi]

Hi Delphi
Hope you are well

Always remember that to judge whether there is a snooker is to take all Reds INDIVIDUALLY, do not take multiple Reds together; image that each Red is on its own on the table and judge whether the Cue Ball can hit both edges of THAT ball. And then judge the next Red if it is snookered, etc.
If ANY single RED ball is NOT snookered, there is NO snooker situation.
If ALL Reds are snookered, then there is a Snooker situation.
And from then:
No Snooker - No - Free Ball option.
Snooker - Yes - Free Ball option

From LD50 scenario 6 Red triangle behind the Pink and after after a Foul, Cue Ball on Brown spot - in this scenario the Cue Ball can NOT hit both edges of any single RED - Pink being the snookering ball. so in this scenario, Foul, Free Ball option as all Reds are snookered.
I am assuming that the 6 Reds are like the triangle of Reds at a break off in say a 6-red match, (as said in the OP)
BUT you have to judge each Red individually in all situations.

I hope this makes sense

Thanks for that, i'm sure i was in this situation before and i wanted to use free ball and was said it wasn't because i could hit either side of the pack.

So to that extend, let's say DeanH breaks off and misses the reds entirely, - no ball has been hit, 15 reds triangle is untouched - i could take green as Free ball if the white is back around baulk line?

[DeanH]

So to that extend, let's say DeanH breaks off and misses the reds entirely, - no ball has been hit, 15 reds triangle is untouched - i could take green as Free ball if the white is back around baulk line?

You been watching me playing again? LOL


Not necessarily,

In your scenario 15 reds, it is possible that the outer-most Reds could be hit in their own both edges, so no snooker.
Always check, in every scenario, each Red individually, as if it was the only Red on the table.
If ANY Red can be hit on its own both edges, no snooker.
If ALL Reds are snookered, snooker.


The Original Post scenario is only a pack of 6 Reds so doubtful that the outer-most Reds could be hit on their own both-edges from the Brown spot.

DO NOT take the "pack" as a single entity.
Always check, in every scenario, each Red individually, as if it was the only Red on the table.

[Delphi]

Ok think i understand now, so in my scenario, (where you mi**** the pack and the triangle is still intact, no red has moved from breakoff)) and white ends up between blue and brown, there is no single red that you can hit on both sides, so it's a free ball.

[DeanH]

Ok think i understand now, so in my scenario, (where you mi**** the pack and the triangle is still intact, no red has moved from breakoff)) and white ends up between blue and brown, there is no single red that you can hit on both sides, so it's a free ball.

Yes
In that scenario - if ALL Reds are snookered - Foul, Free Ball option.

[Delphi]

i was wondering why i saw 4 stars in my post ****, then i saw why
(Mis hit without space ends on a swear word)

[DeanH]

i was wondering why i saw 4 stars in my post ****, then i saw why
(Mis hit without space ends on a swear word)

If you do that again I may have to ban you!

[LD50]

Sorry to beat this to death but this red cluster problem came up twice in my senior snooker league this season and there's nothing funnier than a bunch of us seniors almost in fisticuffs about it and trying to understand the rule in Section 2- Snookered, paragraph 17(c) "When Red is the ball on, if the cue-ball is obstructed from hitting different Reds by different balls not on, there is no effective snookering ball."

1) So to push the example to its limits for me to understand it, my opponent pots a red and f***s on a color. There are now 14 reds in their exact starting position (magically). The cue ball is, say, between the blue spot and the reds. There is no color ball between the cue and any part of the red pack. My understanding is there is no snooker because even though I cannot hit any one red on both sides because red balls in the row behind my target red prevent the cue ball from advancing enough to touch my target red at 90 degrees on at least one side. No snooker because there is no 'ball not on' obstructing the shot. I
understand 'a ball not on' to mean a color ball in this situation, because all the reds are always 'on' and so a red can't snooker a red?

2) In the same above situation, I agree it would be a snooker on all reds if the cue ball was on the other side of the blue, because blue is the obstructing ball and is not on.

And yeah, the fact that this problem came up twice in my league is testament to the inverse relationship between the quality of our play and our argumentative nature!!!

[DeanH]

Sorry to beat this to death but this red cluster problem came up twice in my senior snooker league this season and there's nothing funnier than a bunch of us seniors almost in fisticuffs about it and trying to understand the rule in Section 2- Snookered, paragraph 17(c) "When Red is the ball on, if the cue-ball is obstructed from hitting different Reds by different balls not on, there is no effective snookering ball."

Sec 2.17(c) - to me - is not related to the scenario you describe with a cluster of Reds. You only mention one snookering ball (Pink) So this rule does not apply.
The rule is defining the "effective snookering ball" in a particular scenario of multiple reds being snookered by multiple balls not on. It is not saying there is no snooker.

1) So to push the example to its limits for me to understand it, my opponent pots a red and f***s on a color. There are now 14 reds in their exact starting position (magically). The cue ball is, say, between the blue spot and the reds. There is no color ball between the cue and any part of the red pack. My understanding is there is no snooker because even though I cannot hit any one red on both sides because red balls in the row behind my target red prevent the cue ball from advancing enough to touch my target red at 90 degrees on at least one side. No snooker because there is no 'ball not on' obstructing the shot.

Sorry I don't understand Red potted and what on a colour (autocorrect has "f***s"), what word did you mean?
There is no colour between Reds and cue ball so no snooker but you are on a colour are you not?
Or do you mean the opponent misses a colour - as in not pot it or not hits a colour so a foul?
You come to the table, Reds are on, no snooker as there is no ball not on stopping you hitting the edges of any single Red.

As said before, when deciding on whether a snooker exists with Reds, consider each red individually - as if it was the only Red on the table. Even though you physically can not hit the edges of any Red because other Reds are in the way, this is not considered when deciding if a snooker exists.

I understand 'a ball not on' to mean a color ball in this situation, because all the reds are always 'on' and so a red can't snooker a red?

A Red can not snooker another Red - correct.
Reds are Ball On when coming to the table at the start of a turn and Reds are on after potting a colour in a Break.
Colours are then possible ball on after potting a Red.

2) In the same above situation, I agree it would be a snooker on all reds if the cue ball was on the other side of the blue, because blue is the obstructing ball and is not on.

Correct

And yeah, the fact that this problem came up twice in my league is testament to the inverse relationship between the quality of our play and our argumentative nature!!!

no comment

[DeanH]

found it...
Here below is a great article by a long-term referee which is specifically about judging a Free Ball but to judge that it means judging whether a snooker exists.

https://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/bo...f-you-have-one
The original images where lost due to server transfer some years ago, I have added them at the end of the thread.