Is this a foul shot?

[Eels155]

If a player plays a shot on a red and leaves it hanging on the edge of a pocket, then the next player comes to the table and goes for a different red, but whilst down on the shot, the other red drops in. Obviously he's already going for a red, and another red drops in. I think it's a foul because the shot hasn't been taken yet. But does that matter? If the player strikes the white, pots the red he's going for AND THEN whilst the balls are in motion the other red drops, is that okay? Is that different to playing on a red, potting it, and putting another red as a fluke, scoring two points?

[DeanH]

If a player plays a shot on a red and leaves it hanging on the edge of a pocket, then the next player comes to the table and goes for a different red, but whilst down on the shot, the other red drops in. Obviously he's already going for a red, and another red drops in. I think it's a foul because the shot hasn't been taken yet. But does that matter? If the player strikes the white, pots the red he's going for AND THEN whilst the balls are in motion the other red drops, is that okay? Is that different to playing on a red, potting it, and putting another red as a fluke, scoring two points?

No Foul, all covered in the rules

Sec 3.9 Ball on Edge of Pocket
When a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and:
(a) being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.
(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules (including cases where an infringement would have occurred but for the ball falling into a pocket), all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played by the same striker at their discretion;
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed in Section 3 Rule 11, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.
(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall be considered potted or pocketed and shall not be replaced.

[Eels155]

I'm going to admit to clearly being thick, because those rules are as clear as mud to me. A red isn't going to be 'replaced' is it? Is not like a colour that has a spot. And it isn't going to be put back on the edge of the pocket I'm guessing.

Point A is the closest to my query I think, except as I say, surely the red isn't going to be replaced. And if the ball that dropped was a colour, but the player was lining up a red, then it would be replaced obviously but where it says 'any points will count', what does that mean? If the player was on the first red of a break, would the dropped colour be replaced, no foul called, no points awarded and continue with lining up the red again? Or if the player was on a 50 break when this happened, same as previous point and just continue with the break?

Point C isn't the same as my query because it's about balancing momentarily on the edge, and then dropping, which I'm taking to mean it's on its way to the pocket and stops just before dropping, and then drops, which again isn't the same as my query.

[Nifty50]

You’re not thick mate it’s just that the rules are written in a sort of legal way to cover every eventuality. In simple terms if a ball drops into a pocket and is not deemed to be part of the same shot then it gets replaced right on the edge of the pocket. Simple.

[DeanH]

I'm going to admit to clearly being thick, because those rules are as clear as mud to me. A red isn't going to be 'replaced' is it? Is not like a colour that has a spot. And it isn't going to be put back on the edge of the pocket I'm guessing.

Any ball on the edge of a pocket that drops into the pocket after some time (like definitely after change of turn as you describe in the OP) is REPLACED, no foul.

Point A is the closest to my query I think, except as I say, surely the red isn't going to be replaced.

If no stroke is taken, the Red (or Colour) is replaced, no foul, the same player still can take their stroke, same ball on but can change their mind as to which ball they want to play.
If a stroke is taken - to another ball (not the ball on edge), no foul and the Red ball on the edge is replaced - as in put back to where it had been (no spotted as in colour on its spot).

If a stroke is taken to the ball on the edge and it drops before it is hit or that it would have been hit as part of the stroke (say a plant, etc.), no foul and all balls are replaced; same player can play again same of different shot.

And if the ball that dropped was a colour, but the player was lining up a red, then it would be replaced obviously but where it says 'any points will count', what does that mean?

The colour ball would be replaced. No points given for that colour dropping into the pocket. No Foul.
During that stroke, if the player pots the Red (as per your scenario) those points would count.
If the player was going for a colour and potted the colour that value would count as as.

If the player was on the first red of a break, would the dropped colour be replaced, no foul called, no points awarded and continue with lining up the red again? Or if the player was on a 50 break when this happened, same as previous point and just continue with the break?

Colour replaced, no foul, no points awarded. Same player play again, either same ball or can change to a different ball.

Or if the player was on a 50 break when this happened, same as previous point and just continue with the break?

Ball replaced, no foul, no points awarded. Same player play again, either same ball or can change to a different ball, break continues.

Point C isn't the same as my query because it's about balancing momentarily on the edge, and then dropping, which I'm taking to mean it's on its way to the pocket and stops just before dropping, and then drops, which again isn't the same as my query.

Just kept this for completeness.
- before I have left out parts and then accused of leaving pertinent bits out
This is the scenario where the the ball concerned is NOT replaced; as in - as you say - it only was on the edge for a moment before dropping.

[DeanH]

You’re not thick mate it’s just that the rules are written in a sort of legal way to cover every eventuality. In simple terms if a ball drops into a pocket and is not deemed to be part of the same shot then it gets replaced right on the edge of the pocket. Simple.

except part (c)

You are right, the language and words used does confuse many, me included sometimes; lots of "excepts" and " unlesses"

[Eels155]

Thanks guys for the replies! The scenario happened recently at my local club and we thought it was a foul, but weren't positive. Now we know!

Yeah the rules wording could definitely have an upgrade and be made clearer! I vote Nifty50 to rewrite them! Concise, to the point, done!

But thanks DeanH for the more in depth version as well! Appreciated!

[DeanH]

no worries

Have you got a copy of the rules?
I got a copy many many years ago and read them a night-time - really I did, as I went through a time when I could not sleep hehehehe
Some of it has stuck

You can download a copy or order a book version from here
https://wpbsa.com/rules/

[Eels155]

no worries

Have you got a copy of the rules?
I got a copy many many years ago and read them a night-time - really I did, as I went through a time when I could not sleep hehehehe
Some of it has stuck

You can download a copy or order a book version from here
https://wpbsa.com/rules/

I haven't and I'll be honest, it's out of laziness that I have never read the rules. You kind of know 95% of rules (or you think you do) and then something happens that nobody seems to know the answer to. And then to trawl through loads of small print written like the rules above to find a very specific issue causes me anxiety!!

As I say, from a bone idleness perspective it's so much easier to come somewhere like this and put the question out to the world!

Keeps you all sharp as well!