Miss Rule in Social Game

[Hyperonic]

(c) When there is no referee, such as in a social game, the opposing player or side will be regarded as such for the purpose of these Rules.

The above rule also includes miss rule to be refereed by the opposing player when in a social game. Is the miss rule followed in your club and how can it be implemented when it depends on judgment of the referee and thus subjective ?

[RocketRoy1983]

Foul and a miss cant or shouldnt be used in social games it is a rule only to be implemented in the professional game.

[The Statman]

It depends who you're playing.

I quite often play against pretty reasonable players, and we (as striker) offer it to our opponents, particularly in the part of the rule where the ball is hittable direct.

Both sides will probably recognise when an attempt is or isn't good enough and there shouldn't often be arguments. However, with its strict enforcement on telly I see youngsters call it on themselves when I wouldn't have called it if I'd been refereeing.

But if it's just a group of lads having a social game over a few beers on a Saturday evening, then I wouldn't imagine it would need to be enforced.

At the end of the day, it's not for the club to enforce it or not, it's for the people playing to decide. If they are playing some kind of official match, such as a local league, then it should be played in the manner agreed in that league's rules, but if it is just a 'kickabout' to put it in football terms, then it's up to those involved.

Of course, the rule which you quote is meant to confirm that the non-striker should respot balls for their opponent, and keep an eye out for fouls, etc.

[noel]

Depends ...

Usually we play miss rules by mutual consent beforehand and almost always against players who are serious tournament competitors... it's just good practice and devilishly frustrating fun!



=o)

Noel

[jonashford]

Foul and a miss cant or shouldnt be used in social games it is a rule only to be implemented in the professional game.

Actually your wrong the miss is in the rules of snooker pro and amateur

14. Foul and a Miss

The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on. If the referee considers the Rule infringed, he shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless only the Black remains on the table, or a situation exists where it is impossible to hit the ball on. In the latter case it must be assumed the striker is attempting to hit the ball on provided that he plays, directly or indirectly, in the direction of the ball on with sufficient strength, in the referee's opinion, to have reached the ball on but the obstructing ball or balls.

(a) After a foul and a miss has been called, the next player may request the offender to play again from the position left or, at his discretion, from the original position, in which latter case the ball on shall be the same as it was prior to the last stroke made, namely:

(i) any Red, where Red was the ball on,

(ii) the colour on, where all Reds were off the table, or

(iii) a colour of the striker's choice, where the ball on was a colour after a Red had been potted.

(b) If the striker, in making a stroke, fails to first hit a ball on when there is a clear path in a straight line from the cue-ball to any part of any ball that is or could be on, the referee shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless either player needed snookers before, or as a result of, the stroke played and the referee is satisfied that the miss was not intentional.

(c) After a miss has been called under paragraph (b) above when there was a clear path in a straight line from the cue-ball to a ball that was on or that could have been on, such that central, full-ball, contact was available (in the case of Reds, this to be taken as a full diameter of any Red that is not obstructed by a colour), then:

(i) a further failure to first hit a ball on in making a stroke from the same position shall be called as a FOUL AND A MISS regardless of the difference in scores, and

(ii) if asked to play again from the original position, the offender shall be warned by the referee that a third failure will result in the frame being awarded to his opponent.

(d) After the cue-ball has been replaced under this Rule, when there is a clear path in a straight line from the cue-ball to any part of any ball that is or could be on, and the striker fouls any ball, including the cue-ball while preparing to play a stroke, a miss will not be called if a stroke has not been played. In this case the appropriate penalty will be imposed and

(i) the next player may elect to play the stroke himself or ask the offender to play again from the position left, or

(ii) the next player may ask the referee to replace all balls moved to their original position and have the offender play again from there, and

(iii) if the above situation arises during a sequence of miss calls, any warning concerning the possible awarding of the frame to his opponent shall remain in effect.

(e) All other misses will be called at the discretion of the referee.

(f) After a miss and a request by the next player to replace the cue-ball, any object balls disturbed will remain where they are unless the referee considers the offending player would or could gain an advantage. In the latter case, any or all disturbed balls may be replaced to the referee's satisfaction and in either case, colours incorrectly off the table will be spotted or replaced as appropriate.

(g) When any ball is being replaced after a miss, both the offender and the next player will be consulted as to its position, after which the referee's decision shall be final.

(h) During such consultation, if either player should touch any ball in play, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The ball touched shall be replaced by the referee, to his satisfaction, if necessary, even if it was picked up.

(i) The next player may ask if the referee intends to replace balls other than the cue-ball in the event that he should ask for the stroke to be played from the original position, and the referee shall state his intentions.

[Souwester]

The miss rule is reasonably easy to understand when you can see part of a ball that is on, and I can't see why this shouldn;t be applied throughout the game, wherever and whenever it is played.

However, when attempting to get out of a snooker, then discretion is required. In the professional game it seems that just about all failed attempts at getting out of a snooker are called as a Miss. In social games there has to be leniency and due regard for the ability of the players. In my club it is quite often the striker who calls the Miss on himself.

[Hyperonic]

If miss rule is not applied in social game then the striker can take advantage in a situation when he is 9 points ahead and only pink and black are on the table with black on the edge of a corner pocket. And by potting black intentionally and giving foul he is still 2 score ahead and still needs to pot only pink as before, and has also made the black safe for the other player.

[fredkite]

I don't see how putting the black on it's spot makes it safe unless the two players play to a very poor standard. Also, potting the black like that would be bad sportsmanship so a miss should be called, IMO anyway.

[davis_greatest]

I don't see how putting the black on it's spot makes it safe ...

I would suppose that Hyperonic means safer, rather than absolutely safe.

[davis_greatest]

If miss rule is not applied in social game then the striker can take advantage in a situation when he is 9 points ahead and only pink and black are on the table with black on the edge of a corner pocket. And by potting black intentionally and giving foul he is still 2 score ahead and still needs to pot only pink as before, and has also made the black safe for the other player.

I agree that the miss rule should be used at all levels - the striker must always endeavour to hit the ball on - even though the strictness with which judgements are made or whether the attempt were good enough should depend on the level and player's ability.

Otherwise, there would indeed be cases where it would be better not to attempt to hit the ball on.

Another example could be the striker again 9 points ahead with pink and black left; pink an inch from a corner pocket, white hanging over the diagonally opposite corner, and black say 6 inches from the white, causing a full ball snooker on the pink.

Striker thinks he is not good enough to come off a cushion or swerve, and will likely miss the pink, leaving pink and black very easy. So he chooses to plant the black onto the pink, knocking the pink in, and is in a much better position than he would otherwise have been had he avoided both black and pink.

[Hyperonic]

Is trying to pot a ball not on by first hitting a ball on foul as the commentators discuss in the final frame between davis and parrott in WCS 2007 ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujc52xYgMGI

[davis_greatest]

Is trying to pot a ball not on by first hitting a ball on foul as the commentators discuss in the final frame between davis and parrott in WCS 2007 ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujc52xYgMGI

Some discussion on this / similar points here - http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...d.php?p=362460 - and I think also somewhere else on the forum (but not sure where!).

[Hyperonic]

But in the davis vs parrott case, parrott is first hitting the ball on i.e. black so even if the black had gone to pot red how would it have been called deliberate miss as the commentators were discussing ?

[archalf1471]

Foul and a miss cant or shouldnt be used in social games it is a rule only to be implemented in the professional game.

wouldnt entirely agree Roy. i have seen PIOS players having to play without a ref, and apply the rule. Not sure I would be easy with that I have to say>

always a bone of contention, which i am not still sure where i sit with it. You have players, me included to a certain extent that say its a rule of snooker, exactly as scoring 5 for a blue is. Therefore should be implemented wholesale

on the other hand i contradict myself by saying it is a mightily hard rule to apply at local league level with the " 50 start" players who would say " oh well if you want it that BAD, stick it up your arse"

i think where some education is certainly in order is understanding the rule and its proper implementation..........I had a "ref and marker" ( in the loosest possible sense) for a final 3 years ago who told me before the final that they would " be calling misses" and then proceeded to do nothing when my opponent missed the pack with 14 reds left........I just smirked and laughed to myself

One thing that cant be argued, is it always casues good often lively debate from all angles

[RocketRoy1983]

PIOS will surely use the rule. In tournaments throughout your local leagues the rule will not be exercised im sure.