Confusing ruling - can anyone clear up?

[Billy]

Today during the Selby vs Dott match, Selby was trying to see if the black was on its spot before playing it (there was a red almost touching the black which would have been a contributing factor to his next shot). He turned to Alan Chamberlian and asked this very question. Alan said something that couldn't really be heard, but whatever he said, it wasn't an answer to Mark's question. John Virgo, who was commentating, laughed and said something along the lines of: "Mark's just asking Alan if the black's on its spot. Alan can't tell him that, of course. The referee can't assist a player in such a way."

Fair enough, I thought. But tonight during the highlights of the Carter vs Robertson match, there's a particular moment when Robertson is on a colour. Half the pack are still in place, but the pink has been knocked across the table. Neil looks at the pack and around the pink spot before turning to refere Jan Ver Hass and asking him if the pink will re-spot after he's potted it. Jan ver Hass takes out his little cue-ball marker and confirms for Robertson that the pink will not spot. Commentator Neil Foulds makes some comment and explains that Robertson is perfectly entitled to ask the question.

So what's the difference between Selby asking the ref if the black is on its spot, and Robertson asking if the pink will re-spot after being potted?

[RaNeN]

Good point! Maybe Selby asked the Ref something else? Perhaps, why is the black only worth 7 points?

[poolqjunkie]

I guess it is up to Selby to see for himself and decide if the black was on the spot, it is something that he was supposed to be able to tell on his own; but when there is no ball on the spot, and the player needs to know if a ball can be spotted, it cannot really be determined with naked eye, so he is entitled to ask. I actually am just guessing because I am not awared that Robertson has a right to do what he did.

[Krypton]

sounds pretty much like a mistake by Jan Verhaas, doesn't it? I've always been told the ref should NOT tell players whether a ball will fit on its spot.

but then, who am I to tell JV wrong...

[Souwester]

If a player asks me whether a ball will spot I'd respond "pot it and I'll tell you".

A referee should not answer such a question.

[DawRef]

As a referee, I am under the impression that I CANNOT tell a player if a ball will spot or not. In my opinion, that would be aiding a player. The only thing I can find in the rules which would confirm this, is Section 5 Rule 1(b)(i):
'The referee shall not answer any question not authorised in these Rules'.
Had Selby taken a ball from a pocket and checked himself, that would have been a foul of 7 points (Section 3 Rule 12(d)(i)).
A player can ask the referee if a ball is correctly spotted before his next stroke, (if the referee has just spotted it), but after that, it stays where it is, whether correctly spotted or not.
I didn't see the JVH incident, but from what has been said below, I think he was wrong.

[mooneyy]

I also think JV was wrong actually.

Selby could've asked Alan to clean the black ball couldn't he? That would
have been an easy way to see where it was.

[Krypton]

I remember a situation where the Ref refused to clean the black, asking the player: what's wrong with that black?, fully aware that the only reason the player wanted to have the black cleaned was in fact to see whether it's on its spot or not...

[Odrl]

I remember a situation where the Ref refused to clean the black, asking the player: what's wrong with that black?, fully aware that the only reason the player wanted to have the black cleaned was in fact to see whether it's on its spot or not...

Yes, a similar thing happened a couple of seasons ago with Mark King and Jan Verhaas. King was not sure if the pink would spot, so he asked Verhaas to clean the top ball of the remainder of the cluster. Verhaas told him there was no need for that ball to be cleaned, and they shared a little smile, as they both knew what the other was thinking.

I doubt Verhaas would make such a mistake, something else must have happened.

[glove147]

Jan Verhaas was absolutely right!
He spotted the Pink on yellow spot! (Or was it brown? No i think yellow) Selby thought it would fit on pyramid spot. So he asked Jan to check if the spot is really covered. Jan did so and showed Neil that there is not enough space. So Pink stayed where it was (Yellow Spot) and Neil continued his break.

[Souwester]

Ah, that's a little bit different to what the OP suggested.

[Billy]

Jan Verhaas was absolutely right!
He spotted the Pink on yellow spot! (Or was it brown? No i think yellow) Selby thought it would fit on pyramid spot. So he asked Jan to check if the spot is really covered. Jan did so and showed Neil that there is not enough space. So Pink stayed where it was (Yellow Spot) and Neil continued his break.

Well Selby wasn't involved in that incident, glove147, but if that was how it happened then I apologise for causing the confusion. The way I remember it, the pink wasn't on any spot at the time and I understood that Robertson wanted to know if it would spot it its rightful place after he'd potted it.

Having said that, I did come in on the situation just as it was happening, and your explanation makes far more sense.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, and for clearing it up, glove147

[glove147]

Ooops think i mixed it a bit up. Of course I always ment Neil Robertson. Sorry

[ryanah147]

Can a player take a ball marker out of his pocket , and just `hover it` a 1/4 inch over the spot to check if the ball will spot, but not allowing the marker to touch the cloth?

[mooneyy]

That would be a foul of seven points...

(d) A penalty of seven points is incurred if the striker
(i) uses a ball off the table for any purpose,
(ii) uses any object to measure gaps or distance