Please nominate

[Billy]

I've noticed nowadays that refs don't ask a player to nominate their colour when escaping from snookers (as it's expected the player will do this anyway)

So imagine this scenario, if you will:

A player pots a red and ends up trapped in the pack of the remaining reds - with no clear shot at a colour. The baulk colours are on their spots, but the black has worked its way down and now sits within a couple of inches of the yellow. The player gets down, and without nominating, plays a two cushion escape, dead weight, and tickles up to the yellow. He walks back to his chair happy that he's played a good shot.

Now as far as I understand, the ref would have to call a foul. But would he also call a miss and how many points would he award the other player, four or seven; seven working on the principle that he may have been trying to hit the black and missed?

One day, I will come up with a hypothetical ruling situation that can't be answered.

[abextra]

...

One day, I will come up with a hypothetical ruling situation that can't be answered.

Good luck, Billy!

[bongo]

I think if a player doesn't nominate, it's foul seven, even if he hits a colour.

EDIT - If playing the shot that you mention, not an obvious one!

[brettski]

I think if a player doesn't nominate, it's foul seven, even if he hits a colour.

EDIT - If playing the shot that you mention, not an obvious one!

I'd say this is spot on if he doesn't nominate its defintely a foul and seven points.

[Souwester]

It's only a foul (penalty 7 points) if the player doesn't nominate when the referee requests him to.

The referee will always ask a player to nominate his colour if it is not obvious.

[DawRef]

One day, I will come up with a hypothetical ruling situation that can't be answered.

Unlikely. The rules have been written to cover every situation. There is also this:

Section 5 Rule 1(a)(ii)
The Referee shall be free to make a decision in the interests of fair play for any situation not covered adequately by Rule.

So, there will always be an answer.


In your question, any referee will ask the player to nominate his colour, especially in the situation you have described.

The actual definition is as follows:
(Section 2 Rule 12)
(a) A nominated ball is the object ball which the striker declares, or indicates to the satisfaction of the referee, he undertakes to hit with the first impact of the cue-ball.
(b) If requested by the referee, the striker must declare which ball he is on.

[Souwester]

Unlikely. The rules have been written to cover every situation.

You've obviously not been to many referees' meetings, when there are always a number of scenarios that give rise to heated debate because the rules are ambiguous.

[bongo]

You've obviously not been to many referees' meetings, when there are always a number of scenarios that give rise to heated debate because the rules are ambiguous.

Yes, but the rules says that it's up to the referee. So as long as a ref's present at the match, then you're alright!

[DawRef]

You've obviously not been to many referees' meetings, when there are always a number of scenarios that give rise to heated debate because the rules are ambiguous.

I was recently at an Examiners meeting in Brum. We covered quite a few 'odd scenarios'. However, there was no scenario which couldn't be coverd by the rules.
It all comes down to how the referee applies the rules to the scenario at the time. He hasn't got time to get a rule book out, or discuss on a forum. He has to make the decision there and then. Most players wouldn't know if he was right or wrong anyway.

[Souwester]

We covered quite a few 'odd scenarios'. However, there was no scenario which couldn't be coverd by the rules.

Well yes, I suppose you can always fall back on Section 5.

[Billy]

The referee will always ask a player to nominate his colour if it is not obvious.

That might be what the rules say, but it simply isn't the case. I haven't heard a referee say 'Please nominate' in many many a year. It seems that because the players know that in such a situation they need to make it clear which colour they're intending to hit, the referee simply waits for them to do so. But in that the player is sometimes down on his shot before he actually makes his nomination, it would be too late for the ref to ask, as he'd have played the shot before he got chance.

Thinking about it - he says answering his own question - isn't it simply a case of that if the player is snookered on all colours, he will incur a foul by failing to nominate?

[DawRef]

he will incur a foul by failing to nominate?

Only if the referee has asked him and he doesn't tell him. But the referee will ask him what colour he intends to hit if he is snookered on all the colours (or he should do).

[Billy]

Only if the referee has asked him and he doesn't tell him. But the referee will ask him what colour he intends to hit if he is snookered on all the colours (or he should do).

But that's my point, Daw. These days the referee simply presumes the player will nominate. Will no one back me up on this? You see it so often; a player on a colour, snookered on all, he decides which colour he's going to try and hit, tells the referee, the referee confirms he's heard, and the player takes his shot. At no point during those proceedings does the referee ask for the player to nominate - instead he simply waits and presumes the player will do so.

[DawRef]

I think you will find that if a player is snookered on all colours, after potting a red, he will nominate his colour. If he doesn't, then any good referee will ask him.

WRT to nominating in general, a player does not normally have to verbally nominate his colour of choice.

The late John Street in his book quotes:

"There is no need for the player to declare, when from the way he is aiming there can be no mistake as to what he is trying to do. By his action he is indicating to the referee which ball he intends to hit so there should be no need for the referee to insist that the player declares. However, if there are two or more colours close to each other and the referee is not quite certain which ball the player is aiming to hit then the referee is quite entitled to ask him to declare. Some players do it anyway for their own safety and to avoid misunderstanding. The words 'indicates to the satisfaction of the referee' are very important when applying penalty points. For example, if a player is down on his stroke and quite clearly aiming at pink (but has not said 'Pink'), and he fouls the Yellow, the penalty would be six points, not seven, for failing to declare."

[bongo]

I haven't heard a referee say 'Please nominate' in many many a year.

I've heard Jan Verhaas ask a player to nominate in the Worlds this year at least once.