Ball on Edge of Pocket

[Hyperonic]

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.


On the final colours, the pink was on the extreme edge of the black ball's corner pocket and blue was the ball on. Due to the minute vibration of the table, the Pink fell into the pocket when striker played the blue, and also failed to pot it. The black ball wasn't disturbed as a result of the shot.
Which decision from the following should have been taken in accordance with the rules:

1. Pink, blue and cue ball will be replaced and the same striker will play again.

2. Only pink will be replaced and the next player comes to play blue wherever it has come to rest.

[samad]

Interesting question........ Has it ever happened to you ?
no idea what the ans. is tho

[matt1987]

2 as long as nothing interfered with the pink

[Hyperonic]

Interesting question........ Has it ever happened to you ?
no idea what the ans. is tho

Yes. Today it happened and I suggested 1st option and succesfully potted the blue in my second chance after pink and blue were replaced, because of pink falling into the pocket as soon as I played blue in my previous shot. After that I won the frame by potting the pink.

The other player argued that it wasn't fair and 2nd option should have been taken.

I'm not sure which option is correct, that's why I've created this thread.

[RGCirencester]

Regardless of the rule surely the sportsmanly thing to do is the second option? You have benefited from the pink falling in with the first and it has effected the result of the game.

My interpretation on the rules would be number 2 as the pink is not part of the stroke being played.

[The Statman]

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.


On the final colours, the pink was on the extreme edge of the black ball's corner pocket and blue was the ball on. Due to the minute vibration of the table, the Pink fell into the pocket when striker played the blue, and also failed to pot it. The black ball wasn't disturbed as a result of the shot.
Which decision from the following should have been taken in accordance with the rules:

1. Pink, blue and cue ball will be replaced and the same striker will play again.

2. Only pink will be replaced and the next player comes to play blue wherever it has come to rest.

If the pink was not, or would not have been, hit by any ball in the shot in progress, then the pink is just replaced. The next player then comes to the table and plays from there, just as he would have done if the pink had not fallen.

If the pink WOULD HAVE been disturbed during the shot (and no foul occurred elsewhere on the table), then the balls are replaced to their original position and the same player re-takes the shot.

If the pink WOULD HAVE been disturbed during the shot, and a foul occurred elsewhere on the table (e.g. the cue-ball went in-off and the pink staying up would not have prevented it), then the balls are replaced in their original position – but the player who played it IS STILL FOULED for the separate foul that took place; and the next player comes to the table with the usual options after a foul. (This bit is covered, I believe, by the next part of the Rule, which was not quoted in the top message.)

[ryanah147]

A Likewise Query

While playing the final black into one of the `black pockets`, the player hits the ball so hard that the black jumps out of the pocket and starts to roll towards the opposite centre pocket, in the meantime the cueball bounces off the side cushion and also rolls towards the same centre sack. Both balls reach the middle pocket at the same time and they get jammed protuding over the fall of the slate. Both balls are touching so it is almost impossible to play away.They are also in a position that if you did play away from the black, the black would drop into the pocket.
It is probably a `million to one`chance that this could happen, but what ruling would you give on it ?

[JamesFoster]

It would be a foul shot with 7 points awarded to the opponent. If the opponent needed 7 points or less to tie or win the frame then the black would be respotted and the cueball played from the D.

[DawRef]

Section 3 Rule 8(b):
When a touching ball has been called, the striker must play the cue-ball away from that ball without moving it or it is a push stroke.
Section 3 Rule 8(f):
If the referee is satisfied that any movement of the a touching ball at the moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.

So to answer your question, it all depends on the referee.

If the referee is satisfied that after playing away the black fell in, he will just replace the black in it's original position and the next player plays the next stroke (Ball on edge of pocket rule).

However, if he feels that it was a push stroke, the player will be penalised 7 points and the black re-spotted if it is a tied frame.

[ryanah147]

You seem to miss my point... Both balls are balancing on the fall of the slate in the jaws of the middle pocket, so if any ball moved, the other would fall in.

[Krypton]

He's not missing anything. Two things to consider:

- If black/white are touching, you got to play away from black. If the referee is satisfied that you did you best to avoid a push stroke (white possibly touching black AND jaws), then the strock shall be considered legal.

- If black falls in:
- ref states it was due to a legal stroke, let's say: white coming back of jaws (play away, into cushion, and directly back on black): 7 points, frame ended.
- you just played away, into the open: black replaced.

or do i miss sth now?

completely wrong is this statement:

It would be a foul shot with 7 points awarded to the opponent. If the opponent needed 7 points or less to tie or win the frame then the black would be respotted and the cueball played from the D.

you can't score more than 7 points once only the black is left. If the ref states a foul with only black remaining, then the player not fouling is rewarded 7 points and the frame ends with the actual score.

[The Statman]

While playing the final black into one of the `black pockets`, the player hits the ball so hard that the black jumps out of the pocket and starts to roll towards the opposite centre pocket, in the meantime the cueball bounces off the side cushion and also rolls towards the same centre sack. Both balls reach the middle pocket at the same time and they get jammed protuding over the fall of the slate. Both balls are touching so it is almost impossible to play away.They are also in a position that if you did play away from the black, the black would drop into the pocket.
It is probably a `million to one`chance that this could happen, but what ruling would you give on it ?

I would class both balls as going into the pocket – since neither ball could come to rest where it has without the other being there. So if two reds, then both score; if any other two balls, then it's a foul.

In your scenario it would be a foul 7, and frame to the opponent assuming it was a black-ball game with no tie-break situation in play.

(If either ball would stay on the bed of the table when the other was removed, then I would class that ball as remaining on the table – so it would depend whether it was the black or the white as to whether it was a foul. But I htink a middle pocket is probably too big for this to be achievable.)

[The Statman]

He's not missing anything. Two things to consider:

- If black/white are touching, you got to play away from black. If the referee is satisfied that you did you best to avoid a push stroke (white possibly touching black AND jaws), then the strock shall be considered legal.

- If black falls in:
- ref states it was due to a legal stroke, let's say: white coming back of jaws (play away, into cushion, and directly back on black): 7 points, frame ended.

That would not be correct. If the player has 'played away' and the referee is satisfied that the ball moved NOT as a result of playing 'into' it, you are right in saying it will be considered a fair stroke. However, the black going in would not count; it would come under 'ball moved by other than striker' whereby it would be replaced in its original position with no penalty or score on either side.

That is why I would consider both balls as having been pocketed. Both balls have gone beyond the point that the bed of the table will hold the balls, each under its own gravity.

[moglet]

Surely the simplest way of looking at this is to say that both balls have left the bed of the table? By the same token it is just conceivable that the cue ball could come to rest on top of a tightly packed group of balls, so it would not be in contact with the bed, what would happen here?

[Krypton]

That would not be correct. If the player has 'played away' and the referee is satisfied that the ball moved NOT as a result of playing 'into' it, you are right in saying it will be considered a fair stroke. However, the black going in would not count; it would come under 'ball moved by other than striker' whereby it would be replaced in its original position with no penalty or score on either side.

That is why I would consider both balls as having been pocketed. Both balls have gone beyond the point that the bed of the table will hold the balls, each under its own gravity.

I didn't express myself clearly enough then:

I meant: black in DUE to the stroke, forced by the cueball -> 7 points
OTHERWISE: back to where it was.

And that's what you say, Stat...