Foul or not? Player assisting a referee after a miss

[bongo]

I am not going to get involved in this one as my knowledge is not that vast with the rules but your point above penalised=penalty=foul

When writing a document no matter what it is you always use the same wording through out, for instance you would not use the word penalised then later use the word foul so if these two world have been used in the same document them they both mean differant things.

Example you would not write I went to the shops and purchased seventeen oranges and 15 bananas would you!

Yes, but how else would the player be penalised? We don't have 'two visits rule' or anything like that. If there were anything like that it would clearly say that (obviously that is only in pool).

The rule says he would be penalised as if he were the striker, so if he touched the red if would be four points to your opponent.

[Robert602]

Just to make another point.

This is what the rules says about penalties:



So penalised=penalty=foul (four points for example)

All that says is that a 'foul' incurs a penalty of at least four points.

It doesn't say that the only type of penalty is a foul. When the rules say that the player should be penalised as if they were the striker, that rule alone doesn't specify exactly what that penalty should be. It could be a warning, it could be nothing at all, it could be loss of match, it could be a slap in the face with a wet trout.

If you're convinced it's a foul, how many penalty points should it be?

[bongo]

If you're convinced it's a foul, how many penalty points should it be?

If the player touched a red, or the yellow, green or brown it would be four penalty points, 5 for the blue, 6 for the pink and 7 for the black as normal. In my opinion it's the same as going to the table and picking a ball up during the frame.

[bongo]

Here we are:

12. Penalties
(vi) touching a ball in play, other than the cue-ball with the tip of the cue as a stroke is made

[April madness]

I think this snooker 'foul' problem deserves a thread of it's own! That way it would get noticed easier by our forum referees and clarified to everyone.

[Robert602]

If the player touched a red, or the yellow, green or brown it would be four penalty points, 5 for the blue, 6 for the pink and 7 for the black as normal. In my opinion it's the same as going to the table and picking a ball up during the frame.

Deliberately picking a ball up during the frame? Surely that's not just a simple foul.

[Robert602]

I think this snooker 'foul' problem deserves a thread of it's own! That way it would get noticed easier by our forum referees and clarified to everyone.

Yeah I agree, I'll split them.

[Crusader]

it could be a slap in the face with a wet trout.

Wow. I'd like to see that happen on TV! It would cause a bit of a stink!

[Robert602]

Here we are:

12. Penalties
All fouls will incur a penalty of four points unless a higher one is indicated in paragraph (a) to (d) below. Penalties are:
...
(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by
...
(vi) touching a ball in play, other than the cue-ball with the tip of the cue as a stroke is made

Yeah I think that's relevant (I've expanded the rule you've quoted a little bit). So we know that a player should be penalised as if they were the striker, and rule 12 specifies the number of penalty points. But should the referee say 'foul'?

[Crusader]

Yeah I think that's relevant (I've expanded the rule you've quoted a little bit). So we know that a player should be penalised as if they were the striker, and rule 12 specifies the number of penalty points. But should the referee say 'foul'?

Now we're getting somewhere. Someone who is thinking along the same lines as me.

[Crusader]

But

"(vi) touching a ball in play, other than the cue-ball with the tip of the cue as a stroke is made"

is nothing to do with it.

[Robert602]

Interesting - why not?

The ball is in play since it has not been pocketed or forced off the table (as I read it, the replacement of balls is the one situation where even if the striker picks a ball off the table it's not considered to be 'forced off the table'). Clearly the player (whom we're considering to be the striker) has touched it while not playing a stroke, so it seems to fit the description.

Does the whole of section 12 'Penalties' not have anything to do with it?

[RGCirencester]

Is the definition of a "foul" not "an act that violates the rules of a sport"?

So the rules clearly say don't touch it while it is being replaced.. Hence it is a foul.

The definition of foul on the world snooker rules site is

15. Foul
A foul is any infringement of these Rules.

Again, the rules clearly state not to do it, they have been infringed, so the referree should state foul, penalty points to the other player without affecting order of play.

[Crusader]

My take on it is that the ball is not (back) in play until it has been replaced to the satisfaction of all concerned.

[bongo]

is the definition of a "foul" not "an act that violates the rules of a sport"?

So the rules clearly say don't touch it while it is being replaced.. Hence it is a foul.

The definition of foul on the world snooker rules site is

15. Foul
a foul is any infringement of these rules.

Again, the rules clearly state not to do it, they have been infringed, so the referree should state foul, penalty points to the other player without affecting order of play.

perfect answer!