Foul or not? Player assisting a referee after a miss

[Robert602]

My take on it is that the ball is not (back) in play until it has been replaced to the satisfaction of all concerned.

I was just going by this

10. Ball in Play
...
(b) Object balls are in play from the start of the frame until pocketed or forced off the table.

I can't see any exception to this in the rules, except possibly while cleaning where the ball marker is apparently to be regarded as the ball. There's no mention of balls being out of play during replacement that I can see.

If they're not in play then, are they off the table? In which case the seven point penalty 'using a ball off the table for any purpose' would seem to apply.

[bongo]

I think we are starting to realise that this is a foul as we have all been saying!

[mushka]

I've tagged this "fouls" much much sooner.

[Robert602]

I think we are starting to realise that this is a foul as we have all been saying!

I still don't see any reason to think it's a foul, to be honest. Besides the fact that it doesn't actually contravene any rules (it says you can be penalised, but doesn't actually say not to do it), there's a huge list of things that has to happen after a foul (below), many of which just wouldn't be applicable or sensible in a miss situation.

11. Fouls
If a foul is committed, the referee shall immediately state FOUL.
(a) If the striker has not made a stroke, his turn ends immediately and the referee shall announce the penalty.
(b) If a stroke has been made, the referee will wait until completion of the stroke before announcing the penalty.
(c) If a foul is neither awarded by the referee, nor successfully claimed by the non-striker before the next stroke is made, it is condoned.
(d) Any colour not correctly spotted shall remain where positioned except that if off the table it shall be correctly spotted.
(e) All points scored in a break before a foul is awarded are allowed but the striker shall not score any points for any ball pocketed in a stroke called foul.
(f) The next stroke is played from where the cue-ball comes to rest or, if the cue-ball is off the table, from in-hand.
(g) If more than one foul is committed in the same stroke, the highest value penalty shall be incurred.
(h) The player who committed the foul
(i) incurs the penalty prescribed in Rule 12 below, and
(ii) has to play the next stroke if requested by the next player.

In particular (h)ii) contradicts 14(h) which states that the order of play would not be changed, and (d) and (f) contradict the part of 14(h) which says that the balls are repositioned by the referee after the offence. To me these aren't worded as exceptions, we're simply not supposed to be applying section 11, so I think no foul.

[RGCirencester]

Personally I take "he shall be penalised as if he were the striker" to imply that the situation is taken as if a player touched the white as he was at the table, so foul 4 or whatever but with the exception of not altering the order of play.

[poolqjunkie]

Personally I take "he shall be penalised as if he were the striker" to imply that the situation is taken as if a player touched the white as he was at the table, so foul 4 or whatever but with the exception of not altering the order of play.

This is how it looks to me, too.

[mushka]

Statman is on holiday?

Not that you guys aren't qualified to make your comments, but I'm impatiently waiting for the "Ah, solved then" moment that usually follows his explanations. Or at least the finality that comes with his confirming a previous explanation.

[JanieWatkins]

Statman is on holiday?

Not that you guys aren't qualified to make your comments, but I'm impatiently waiting for the "Ah, solved then" moment that usually follows his explanations. Or at least the finality that comes with his confirming a previous explanation.

IT IS A FOUL!!!

Someone's posted the relevant rule. IT IS A FOUL.

[mushka]

I'm not even arguing it! And I didn't mean to question anyone's explanation, if that's what your reply is about.
I've just made a little observation that Statman is better at shutting up questioners.

[Terry Davidson]

It is absolutely, without a doubt a FOUL.

Bongo...you quoted the wrong rule. I'm too lazy to dig out my rule book but there's one in there where it says a player is not allowed to touch any ball unless it's off the table

Terry

[RGCirencester]

Interestingly the same situation applies to the ball marker when the ref is cleaning the white.

2. Position of Balls
(ii) the device used to mark the position of a ball being cleaned shall be regarded as and acquire the value of the ball until such time as the ball has been cleaned and replaced. If any player other than the striker should touch or disturb the device, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The referee shall return the device or ball being cleaned to its position, if necessary, to his satisfaction, even if it was picked up.

[wildJONESEYE]

Parrott just moved the white ball with his hand when trying to replace the balls. Isn't that a foul?

after a foul the player can assist with respoting the colours or reds but they must not touch the balls or its a foul....if parrot touched the ball in any way its a foul.

End of Discusion

[DandyA]

I agree ... strictly abiding by the rules, it is a foul ...

however, since JP was only trying to help the ref and his actions had no affect at all on the game, I'm wondering if there is a rule that would allow the ref some discretion ...

could the ref had, for instance, said "please don't do that again or I'll call a foul" or does the ref have to call a foul cos he had no choice in the matter ...

[poolqjunkie]

I've just made a little observation that Statman is better at shutting up questioners.

LOL, yes he is indeed.

[bongo]

It is absolutely, without a doubt a FOUL.

Bongo...you quoted the wrong rule. I'm too lazy to dig out my rule book but there's one in there where it says a player is not allowed to touch any ball unless it's off the table

Terry

Hi Terry, I couldn't quite find that rule. If you don't mind could you find it on these rules on the IBSF website here: http://ibsf.info/rules-snooker.shtml

could the ref had, for instance, said "please don't do that again or I'll call a foul" or does the ref have to call a foul cos he had no choice in the matter ...

I think he could have used the rule below.

1. The Referee
(a) The referee shall
(i) be the sole judge of fair and unfair play,
(ii) be free to make a decision in the interests of fair play for any situation not covered adequately by Rule

So this rule is not really covered by rule and the referee may have judged that it wasn't unfair play in that instance.

I think most players know that you shouldn't do it and that's why you wouldn't see them moving the balls on TV, just leave it to the referee. On TV it probably would be a foul but not in the qualifying stages as it is a less important match but it does seem strange that on TV it would be a foul (I think that anyway) and not in qualifying stages.

EDIT - I've just gone through the thread and I think 10 people think it is a foul and 1 person thinks it isn't. 10 against 1 I'm afraid!