Foul or not? Player assisting a referee after a miss

[Souwester]

But as a referee you are taught that the rule books use very specific words for clarity. As a more obvious example, you have a white ball as part of the set of snooker balls, but nowhere do the snooker rules refer to the white ball... but to the cue ball instead.

[Robert602]

People seem to be getting annoyed as if this was a trick question or a pedantic answer, but the possibility of a penalty not being a foul has been mentioned several times (and several pages) earlier.

This was always a discussion of subtleties but what it comes down to is this - if you were refereeing the match and called 'foul', you'd be wrong. Not just for the sake of it or because the WSA feel like being awkward, but because of the possibly unfair consequences that would have to come with the call.

[wildJONESEYE]

im getting anoyed because it is a foul and some idiots saying it isnt only a bloody penalty ...

its a foul end of....

ill tell you why its anoying me because its splitting hairs bottom line parrot picked up the ball 4 points to his oponement = foul

[ferret]

im getting anoyed because it is a foul and some idiots saying it isnt only a bloody penalty ...

its a foul end of....

ill tell you why its anoying me because its splitting hairs bottom line parrot picked up the ball 4 points to his oponement = foul

Relax, take a breath.

You were wrong don't worry about it everybody makes mistakes, if you actually read the posts above that I have made there are two world snooker referee's that are telling you that it is not a foul.

How you can say that they are wrong and you are not is beyond me, when dealing with the rules of a game the words foul and penalty may seem the same but they are completely different that is why they are different words and have two meanings in the dictionary and two meaning by the official world snooker rules.

[Robert602]

im getting anoyed because it is a foul and some idiots saying it isnt only a bloody penalty ...

its a foul end of....

ill tell you why its anoying me because its splitting hairs bottom line parrot picked up the ball 4 points to his oponement = foul

Yes, it should be a four point penalty. No, it's not a foul. I suggest reading this.

[wildJONESEYE]

ferrett

was it 4 points to his oponement ?

if answer to that was yes therefore its a foul...

they can split hairs all they want by saying its not a foul bottom line everyone that said when parrot picked up that ball it was a foul 4 points away was right.

[Souwester]

While we're talking about penalties and not fouls, can I just mention Section 3 rule 2(b)(ii):

the device used to mark the position of a ball being cleaned shall be regarded as and acquire the value of the ball until such time as the ball has been cleaned and replaced. If any player other than the striker should touch or disturb the device, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The referee shall return the device or ball being cleaned to its position, if necessary, to his satisfaction, even if it was picked up.

[Robert602]

bottom line everyone that said when parrot picked up that ball it was a foul 4 points away was right.

I would've agreed with them at the time. We weren't right though. Close in some respects, but ultimately (and very forgivably) wrong.

[Souwester]

ferrett

was it 4 points to his oponement ?

if answer to that was yes therefore its a foul...

they can split hairs all they want by saying its not a foul bottom line everyone that said when parrot picked up that ball it was a foul 4 points away was right.

For God's sake it is *NOT* a foul. It's not splitting hairs.

[RGCirencester]

While we're talking about penalties and not fouls, can I just mention Section 3 rule 2(b)(ii):

the device used to mark the position of a ball being cleaned shall be regarded as and acquire the value of the ball until such time as the ball has been cleaned and replaced. If any player other than the striker should touch or disturb the device, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The referee shall return the device or ball being cleaned to its position, if necessary, to his satisfaction, even if it was picked up.

I already mentioned this in a previous post

Interestingly the same situation applies to the ball marker when the ref is cleaning the white.

2. Position of Balls
(ii) the device used to mark the position of a ball being cleaned shall be regarded as and acquire the value of the ball until such time as the ball has been cleaned and replaced. If any player other than the striker should touch or disturb the device, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The referee shall return the device or ball being cleaned to its position, if necessary, to his satisfaction, even if it was picked up.

[wildJONESEYE]

For God's sake it is *NOT* a foul. It's not splitting hairs.

for god sake what else do you call calling 4 points away same as a foul not a bloody foul not splitting sodding hairs ???

[ferret]

ferrett

was it 4 points to his oponement ?

if answer to that was yes therefore its a foul...

they can split hairs all they want by saying its not a foul bottom line everyone that said when parrot picked up that ball it was a foul 4 points away was right.

You obviously have a problem and think that the world revolves around you, it is the your type of post and argumentative manner on the forum which stops a lot of very well known people in the snooker world form posting on the forum because they know they are correct but you always get people like you who think they know it all.

I will say it again YOU ARE WRONG and the professional people who do this for a living are correct.

[wildJONESEYE]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha i give up more sense with a wall

and just before i give up dont forget they work for World Snooker the kings of being professional that cant organise a raffle.

[The Statman]

ferrett

was it 4 points to his oponement ?

if answer to that was yes therefore its a foul...

they can split hairs all they want by saying its not a foul bottom line everyone that said when parrot picked up that ball it was a foul 4 points away was right.

No it was not a foul.

If it was a foul, then the rules also state that after a foul, the non-offender can say play again; and can have a free ball if snookered. The fact is that none of these things can happen.

That is why the rule is very carefully worded to make clear that it is not a foul (therefore all those benefits you usually get after a foul cannot happen), but there is a penalty of four points (or more if blue, pink or black).

and just before i give up dont forget they work for World Snooker the kings of being professional that cant organise a raffle.

I thought they were self-employed?

[Terry Davidson]

Ferret:

Thanks very much for clarifying that call. I am (supposedly) a certified referee and I would have called 'FOUL' as I've never heard 'PENALTY'. The referee is correct though as if I call a FOUL then technically the MISS call is off the table and the offender gets a free pass out of the MISS.

However, the first rule of refereeing is "I may not always be right, but I'm never f#$@%& wrong!" or as the rules guy at the IBSF told me once 'the referee's decision is final (unless of course a player appeals to the senior referee before either player takes another shot).

Terry