Keep shooting after a foul?

[Forman]

You know, once this person touched the ball with his cue. I saw it, was just about to say something; but he potted the ball before I had the chance--then he rolled up behind the brown and snookered me solid.

sounds like somthing a pool player would do

[The Statman]

provided the cue ball went in the pocket before the player touched the black i always thought the opponent just gets the 4 points for the in off because you can only foul once during any one shot, kinda like if you were playing for a red and you miss and hit the black but the cue ball also goes in off, you only get the foul 7 for hitting the black not 11 for both failing to hit the ball on and the in off

That is a very different situation, though, because a stroke has been played.

In the opening part of Rule 11, it states:

If a foul is committed, the referee shall immediately state FOUL.
(a) If the striker has not made a stroke, his turn ends immediately and the referee shall announce the penalty.

Which is the situation in the original question.

However, it goes on to say:

(b) If a stroke has been made, the referee will wait until completion of the stroke before announcing the penalty.

Therefore, if a stroke has been made, since it is not specified that the striker's turn ends immediately, I would agree that we have to assume that he remains the striker until the player is considered to have left the table.

By the way, I believe there is potentially an alteration to the rules, coming out soon, to greatly enhance the description of when a stroke (but not necessarily a turn) has been completed. This may help in this tangled situation.

[Krypton]

One question to Statman about this:

5. Striker
The person about to play or in play is the striker and remains so until the referee has decided he has left the table at the end of his turn.

Where does it say that, even if 'your turn ends immediately due to a foul being made without a stroke being made', you are NOT THE striker anymore? For me, it seems that A) your turn ends (for whatever reason, foul or missing), and then B) you leave the table, and if the ref decides you've done so, THEN you're not the striker anymore.

So, if you make a foul while feathering the white (not playing a stroke yet), I'm with you Stat that the turn ends immediately. 'Turn' here meaning you're at the table entitled to play a stroke. You must not play anymore.

You STILL can be considered the striker. at least the rule doesn't say anything against.


Just to be a pain in the a...

[DawRef]

By the way, I believe there is potentially an alteration to the rules, coming out soon, to greatly enhance the description of when a stroke (but not necessarily a turn) has been completed. This may help in this tangled situation.

Would be grateful if you kept us informed about this.

On another note, I bought up the point that when a frame is tied (excepting in aggregate scores situation, unless the match aggregate score is tied), the black is re-spotted and the cue-ball is played from in hand. However, in the definition of 'in hand' this was not included. I was informed, via the Sussex Referees Association update to their Snooker and Billiard Rules Guide, that the current(?) Rule Book included this (and a couple of others) omission. In fact, having just checked, it is not even on World Snooker's website. ( http://www.worldsnooker.com/rules_of_snooker.htm).


If World Snooker cannot get it right, what chance have we got, as referees, of enforcing the correct rules and regulations?

[bkpaul]

If World Snooker cannot get it right, what chance have we got, as referees, of enforcing the correct rules and regulations?

Take that a step further in that if referee's aren't informed what chance have club players got of getting it right.

Which is one reason I keep harping on about such things to the EASB... communication is paramount as is the undersanding of that communication.

[The Statman]

Would be grateful if you kept us informed about this.

On another note, I bought up the point that when a frame is tied (excepting in aggregate scores situation, unless the match aggregate score is tied), the black is re-spotted and the cue-ball is played from in hand. However, in the definition of 'in hand' this was not included.

I received a little slip in the post saying that this had now been included in the list of "in-hand" situations.

[Terry Davidson]

Statman:

I guess for the purpose of this discussion we should have defined the striker's turn as ending immediately the ref calls 'foul' AND ALL BALLS HAVE COME TO REST.

Problem though...(and I'm not sure on this one)...in the case where a player fouls when he's feathering, ref calls 'foul', all balls are at rest but he touches a ball with his cue as he's getting up.

As he's not the striker at that point would that be covered under 'outside interference' and the balls replaced or else would it be classed as a foul and he is assessed a further 4-7 points even though he is non-striker at that point?

If I was refereeing, I think I would call the first foul for feathering and then a further foul for touching a ball as he was still standing at the table even though he was not technically the striker.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

Another situation that comes up here in Canada quite a lot is player's do not normally spot their opponent's balls and in fact some players ask at the start of a match if they can spot their own balls.

What's not understood is if the player spots a ball wrong it's NOT a foul since he is technically acting as a referee at the time he's spotting balls.

Some players will wait until the striker takes another shot at the next red and then jump out of their seats and yell 'FOUL'. This happened to me in a match and I had to explain to my opponent it wasn't a foul and he walked out of teh match.

Terry

[The Statman]

Another situation that comes up here in Canada quite a lot is player's do not normally spot their opponent's balls and in fact some players ask at the start of a match if they can spot their own balls.

What's not understood is if the player spots a ball wrong it's NOT a foul since he is technically acting as a referee at the time he's spotting balls.

Some players will wait until the striker takes another shot at the next red and then jump out of their seats and yell 'FOUL'. This happened to me in a match and I had to explain to my opponent it wasn't a foul and he walked out of teh match.

Terry

Yes you're quite right. However, in fact the Rules do state that the non-striker shall act as the referee in games without an official official, as it were.

You could almost argue that, by asking that a player spot his own balls, he is walking into that situation.

Can I ask, why would a person want to spot his own balls? I would prefer to concentrate on my own shot in the knowledge that my opponent is sure to do it for me!

[Terry Davidson]

It beats me! Even Alain Robidoux prefers to spot his own balls.

I know in a match once my opponent came over to me after a couple of frames and said he'd rather spot his own balls as I was too slow (I wasn't about to run around the table grabbing the colour balls out of pockets) plus it was my 4th match of the day and I was tired. Boo Hoo!!! too bad!!!!

I never ask to spot my own balls, but I end up doing it in most matches anyway as the habit is ingrained over here.

I think I will at least state the rule in our next ranking tournament this Saturday as I believe most players aren't aware of it

Terry

[bkpaul]

I have to agree with Statman here, I never spot my own balls (unless my opponent can't get to the pocket), I also never count my own points as it breaks my concentration.

When playing well I concentrate that hard that I often can't remember what I have scored, how I scored the points or if anything happened in a game e.g. someone dropping a glass or walking in front of a shot.

As a bye product of that degree of concentration I often feel tired after playing say 5 or 6 frames but when I am playing ok/average/poor I can play all day and feel pretty fresh...

This of course is a known phenomina and that level of concentration is the holy grail (the zone)

I have noticed one major thing about the zone and that is when you come out of it (usually at the end of the match) I feel disorientated for maybe 20-30 seconds like I have just woken up.... a very wierd feeling as I am sure most people would understand if I say waking up in a snooker centre is not something you would usually do.!

[The Statman]

I have to agree with Statman here, I never spot my own balls (unless my opponent can't get to the pocket), I also never count my own points as it breaks my concentration.

Another thing I am quite strict on, especially with younger players, is when picking balls out for the players, also calling the scores as a referee would. (I've said this before and apologies for going even further off topic!)

One reason is that, even in the zone, if you hear your opponent call '12' and then you pot the blue and he calls '16', you have a fair chance of noticing that a mistake has been made; also if your opponent loses count it'll be easier to remember what was last called rather than working out which balls you've potted.

Secondly, I think young, improving players should not be shielded from the fact that their highest break is approaching, or that the magical half-century is on the horizon. Players will have to get used to listening to their scores being called out and I don't think it helps players' 'bottle' if they knock in breaks in silence and told afterwards that they scored 52. Would they pot that last ball if they'd known it was for the fifty?

[poolqjunkie]

Yes, a lot of players here in Canada simply do not feel that they should spot all balls for their opponents if he/she feels that the striker is closer to the table then he/she is or if the striker is en route to the pocket anyway. I have also come across lots of players who simply do not make an effort to keep score for their opponents.
Once, I was told, after I won my match, by my opponent that I was trying too hard to spot my opponent's balls that I was "sharking" him.
My practice partner and I always keep score for each other and spot all balls unless the striker raises his hand to say he will do it himself. I think that is the way to do it, and the way it should be.
I like to keep track of my own score or at least I try. It is just for my own benefit that I know what I have made in case my opponent has made a mistake either intentionally or unintentionally.

[Forman]

Another thing I am quite strict on, especially with younger players, is when picking balls out for the players, also calling the scores as a referee would. (I've said this before and apologies for going even further off topic!)

One reason is that, even in the zone, if you hear your opponent call '12' and then you pot the blue and he calls '16', you have a fair chance of noticing that a mistake has been made; also if your opponent loses count it'll be easier to remember what was last called rather than working out which balls you've potted.

Secondly, I think young, improving players should not be shielded from the fact that their highest break is approaching, or that the magical half-century is on the horizon. Players will have to get used to listening to their scores being called out and I don't think it helps players' 'bottle' if they knock in breaks in silence and told afterwards that they scored 52. Would they pot that last ball if they'd known it was for the fifty?

I always call the score as im spotting the balls like a ref would and try to encourage other players to do the same, I dont keep count in my head when im at the table and more times than i care to remember ive asked my opponent what the break was only for them to reply "I dont know, i lost count/stopped counting", its really frustrating when you know you must be getting near your high break and you have to stop and try to remember the balls youve potted.

[DawRef]

I don't mind too much if I have to pick balls out, what I DONT like is people putting up the score as you go along. It's caused quite a few arguments when I've then gone and added the break again. So now, whenever I'm playing I state at the outset that I'll put my own score on (unless it's a league match and there's a 'referee'}.