Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

about side?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I think that there is a small but useable amount of spin tranferred to the object ball in some circumstances.
    If you place the cue ball and object ball exactly on the baulk line and in the D,say object ball on the green spot and the cue ball on the brown spot I have found that I can play for the object ball to strike the side cushion slightly out of baulk and come back in,or,strike the cushion in baulk and rebound out. This effect is small but useable especially in billiards.
    Try it , play a stroke with maximum side and see the effect.
    This to me proves conclusively that some spin is transmitted.
    Roy Bacon
    Last edited by roykay; 27 December 2010, 11:53 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally Posted by roykay View Post
      nrage,
      side does affect the path of the cue ball after contact with the object ball.
      Try playing in off's with check or running side.
      Roy bacon
      Have you watched the videos I linked? I believe left/right hand side itself does not affect the path of the cue ball after contact with the object ball.

      However.. left/right hand side might affect where you're hitting the object ball, because they induce throw. If you can correct for that, and strike the object ball in the same spot every time with the same power, adding more or less side shouldn't change the path of the white..

      Unless.. you also put top/bottom or hit with more/less power. The thing which does change the path of the white is top/bottom spin and power, or more specifically; whether the white is rolling when it hits the object ball, and how fast it's rolling.

      If the white has natural roll i.e. it's rolling down the table with no more/less spin than the speed it's travelling, then it hits an object ball, it looses some speed but no forward spin/roll. So, when it comes off the object ball it immediately curves forward, resulting in an angle of approx 30 degrees from the original direction of travel, assuming a 1/2 ball hit or close to 1/2 ball hit.

      If the white is sliding, i.e. stunned, and not rolling it comes off the object at exactly 90 degrees to the original line of travel.

      If it has bottom or screw it immediately curves backward of 90 degrees, so you get an angle greater than 90 degrees.

      The videos show all the various possibilities quite well.
      "Do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error"
      - Linus Pauling

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally Posted by nrage View Post
        Have you watched the videos I linked? I believe left/right hand side itself does not affect the path of the cue ball after contact with the object ball.

        However.. left/right hand side might affect where you're hitting the object ball, because they induce throw. If you can correct for that, and strike the object ball in the same spot every time with the same power, adding more or less side shouldn't change the path of the white..

        Unless.. you also put top/bottom or hit with more/less power. The thing which does change the path of the white is top/bottom spin and power, or more specifically; whether the white is rolling when it hits the object ball, and how fast it's rolling.

        If the white has natural roll i.e. it's rolling down the table with no more/less spin than the speed it's travelling, then it hits an object ball, it looses some speed but no forward spin/roll. So, when it comes off the object ball it immediately curves forward, resulting in an angle of approx 30 degrees from the original direction of travel, assuming a 1/2 ball hit or close to 1/2 ball hit.

        If the white is sliding, i.e. stunned, and not rolling it comes off the object at exactly 90 degrees to the original line of travel.

        If it has bottom or screw it immediately curves backward of 90 degrees, so you get an angle greater than 90 degrees.

        The videos show all the various possibilities quite well.
        You've hit the nail on the head, nrage. When using side, the BOB (the point on the back of ball opposite the pocket) changes. This affects the way that the white ball comes off the object ball, and the white ball comes off at an appreciably different angle.
        With the not-perfectly-clean balls that we use on club tables, using side can make a massive difference to where the white finishes, even if no cushion is used. Whether or not it's a bad habit is another topic.
        It's something that a lot of players use subconsciously around the pink and black spots, when in amongst the reds in particular.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally Posted by cantpotforshíte View Post
          You've hit the nail on the head, nrage. When using side, the BOB (the point on the back of ball opposite the pocket) changes.
          Well.. to be a bit pedantic the point on the back of the ball opposite the pocket never changes, unless you move the object ball to a different spot on the table.

          But, if you need to account for collision or spin induced object ball throw (where the collision of the white, or the spin on the white pushes the object ball off the line through the point of impact) then the point you need to hit the object ball to pot it into the middle of the pocket will not be opposite the pocket, not exactly, it will vary slightly.

          But.. in most cases I would have thought the variance is quite small. There is some evidence that side spin and "spin transfer" can affect the amount of object ball throw even removing it altogether. There is also some evidence that different speeds and cut angles have more or less throw, see:
          http://billiards.colostate.edu/techn...ew/TP_A-14.pdf

          It's all a bit too much maths for me, but the conclusions (look for "BOTTOM LINE" in the article) seem to say that:
          - different cut angles have more/less throw
          - throw is largest at 1/2 ball hit
          - slower shots have more throw
          - stun shots have more throw
          - side spin can increase or decrease throw

          So.. if you're playing a slow shot, 1/2 ball hit, with stun and side or you're potting into a long pocket or a very narrow pocket you might need to think about throw, otherwise you can probably ignore it.

          Originally Posted by cantpotforshíte View Post
          This affects the way that the white ball comes off the object ball, and the white ball comes off at an appreciably different angle.
          There are some great videos here:
          http://www.youtube.com/user/FargoBil.../6/zysbWeI2_ZE
          http://www.youtube.com/user/FargoBil.../7/4vRi3Jih1Lg

          Which show that if you play a 1/2 ball shot you get a certain carom angle with the white, then you can vary that 1/2 ball contact by quite a large amount before it has any effect on the carom angle. So.. as long as your adjustment to the point of contact (for the throw you expect) stays within the range shown in those videos, you should get exactly the same carom angle each time regardless of the side spin applied.

          Originally Posted by cantpotforshíte View Post
          With the not-perfectly-clean balls that we use on club tables, using side can make a massive difference to where the white finishes, even if no cushion is used. Whether or not it's a bad habit is another topic.
          It's something that a lot of players use subconsciously around the pink and black spots, when in amongst the reds in particular.
          I have read/watched all these videos and I know the theory, but I don't play with a lot of side so I might be wrong about what "actually" happens. All I can say is that the theory states that side spin on the white should make almost no difference to the path of the white off the object ball (before it hits a rail).

          The point of contact and amount of top/bottom spin will however. I can't see the point of contact changing by very much when playing with side. However, players using side might be adding stun by accident or habit. Maybe they cue up lower when using side, or maybe their natural 'center ball' height is slightly below center, and the curve on the ball out to the side results in some stun.
          "Do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error"
          - Linus Pauling

          Comment


          • #35
            Not sure if it's been said in this thread but transfer of side can be very useful on rail shots in any game with curved pockets. If you have a ball lying tight on a rail and the rail is say, on the right hand side of the ball, playing a small amount of left hand side on the cue ball can help transfer a little right hand side to the object ball, which helps it hug the rail on the way down and increases your chances of it not coming of fline.

            The slight swerving of the cue ball also opens up the angle slightly and makes your margin of error slightly larger.

            Sorry if this has already been posted.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally Posted by roykay View Post
              I think that there is a small but useable amount of spin tranferred to the object ball in some circumstances.
              If you place the cue ball and object ball exactly on the baulk line and in the D,say object ball on the green spot and the cue ball on the brown spot I have found that I can play for the object ball to strike the side cushion slightly out of baulk and come back in,or,strike the cushion in baulk and rebound out. This effect is small but useable especially in billiards.
              Try it , play a stroke with maximum side and see the effect.
              This to me proves conclusively that some spin is transmitted.
              Roy Bacon
              Hi. Roy, Couldnt agree more with your answer regarding transmitted side. For the benefit of the mainly snooker enthusiasts on this site this subject has been extensivly discussed and indeed employed by world class billiardists throughout its development. Indeed one of the greatest E.J. Murt o'Donaghue
              shows in his book Advanced Billiards various shots at the top utilising his knowledge of it. Just in case his understanding regarding snooker may be questioned he was the first ever to record a 147 ... Yes, before the great Joe Davis.... in Griffith New South Wales in 1936. :snooker:

              Comment

              Working...
              X