Are you allowed to correct the referee

[carbuncle]

What are the rules pertaining to questioning a decision made by the ref that is obviously wrong.

In my local league, 2 tables been played i'm ref on one table, my collegue is ref on the other table, there is a lull in the action on my table so as both tables are next to each other i was watching the finish of that game. One player (from opposing side) attempts to get out of a snooker and hits the black quite blatently, the ref must have blinked or looked away for a second as he missed the black and announced "foul 4 away" , I looked at him and said "it hit the black, he questioned both players (opponent said he never saw it) and when a player from opponents side said yes it had hit the black the correct foul was awarded.

This caused some grief as even my team said i shouldn't have said a word and just allowed the ref to have made the mistake especially as i was reffing on the other table which i pointed out had nothing to do with it really.


Now jump forward two weeks and i am playing with 'our' ref again, my opponent made a shot which was a foul and i asked for a free ball, the ref who is a new player thought that to be a free ball you had to not be able to see the center of an object ball as opposed to the correct rule which is you should be able to see both sides and if you cant then it is a free ball, i pointed out to him that he had made a error and it was a free ball which had the other player looking in as well and murmourings from his team mates.

Was i right to question the ref on this? or should i have accepted his decision even though it was patently wrong and in the first instance was i right to point out to the ref something he had blatently missed.


If the answer was i shouldn't have got involved my reply was what would happen then if you saw the ref make a error putting the scores up which the players missed and meant a player say needed a snooker, are you allowed to say to the ref he has scored wrongly?

Thanks in advance.

[missneworleans]

Basically ref is always right though if it is so wrong it can go to tournament/league managament but you wont have many chances anyway though

[Harv]

If it's 50/50 then ref decision. If it's blatent that it's a foul then i as a player might say something lol

I was reffing the other day, and the player must have completly forgot about the yellow and went straight for the green. I wasn't going to say anything so just stood there until he played the shot, then called a foul

That caused some grief, the player thought I should have told him what ball to go for.

[andydrak]

There is un unwritten rule when ref : always check before if you aren't sure about a decission you are about to make. For that, you are entitled by the rule book to seek assistance from other officials, spectators, or even players. Because, on the other hand, if you'll do it your way, even if you're extremely wrong, on the base that "a decision made by the referree shall be final and shall not be subject to any appeal" it you'll make you look silly in front of the players and you will lose your authority at the table.

[missneworleans]

If it's 50/50 then ref decision. If it's blatent that it's a foul then i as a player might say something lol

I was reffing the other day, and the player must have completly forgot about the yellow and went straight for the green. I wasn't going to say anything so just stood there until he played the shot, then called a foul

That caused some grief, the player thought I should have told him what ball to go for.

obviously should have asked if he was in any doubt
that really stupid and shows how hard it is to be a referee

[cantpotforshíte]

There is un unwritten rule when ref : always check before if you aren't sure about a decission you are about to make. For that, you are entitled by the rule book to seek assistance from other officials, spectators, or even players. Because, on the other hand, if you'll do it your way, even if you're extremely wrong, on the base that "a decision made by the referree shall be final and shall not be subject to any appeal" it you'll make you look silly in front of the players and you will lose your authority at the table.

Thats' exactly it. It should be made clear to all referees at amateur league level, if they are not sure - just ask.
Also there will be something in your league handbook about it. (The little booklet that has the fixtures etc in). In ours I think it says that in the event of a dispute, the referee should consult each of the team captains for guidance.
It does annoy me though, when every big nosed half wit in the club starts gathering around the table and peering at free ball situations half way through a league match when it's none of their business.

[The Statman]

Yes, technically you were at fault for sticking your nose in when you were unconnected with that table, although it's hardly something you should be criticised for.

What would have happened if you hadn't told the referee the black was hit? I guess one of the players would have told him. A player is quite entitled to question the referee and, as noted above, the referee is then quite entitled to check with other officials and spectators. If both players agree, or the player querying the decision is the one who would be disadvantaged by it, then I as referee would probably accept that I was wrong and change the decision.

Once a query has been made, it is up to the referee to come to a final decision based on whatever evidence he feels he should take into account.

[dantuck_7]

I remember sitting in a match at the crucible (I think it was Rory McLeod versus King last year, the start of their 2nd session). One of the players had just had a 50 break, and then that score was called out by the ref. Someone a few rows back then shouts out that there was a foul-4 that hadn't been recorded at the start of the frame. It hadn't and then the scorer added it on...

This wasn't really a rules issue, the original foul had been called, but just not logged by the scorer. Both players were happy with the 4 points being added on and it didn't affect the frame at all.

[magicman]

I think an element of common sense has to come into the equation surely? If inexperienced players are reffing how will they ever learn if incorrect calls aren't corrected? The gentlemanly aspect of the game should really dictate that teams should require the correct decision over and above their own interests. This is what calling your own fouls is all about/shaking your opponents hand/keeping quiet on his shot/not moving in his eyeline etc. The refs decision is his and his alone but if he's unsure of the rule then he should ask more experienced players before making the decision.

[The Statman]

I remember sitting in a match at the crucible (I think it was Rory McLeod versus King last year, the start of their 2nd session). One of the players had just had a 50 break, and then that score was called out by the ref. Someone a few rows back then shouts out that there was a foul-4 that hadn't been recorded at the start of the frame. It hadn't and then the scorer added it on...

This wasn't really a rules issue, the original foul had been called, but just not logged by the scorer. Both players were happy with the 4 points being added on and it didn't affect the frame at all.

Yes I remember that too - definitely Mark King but not sure which of his matches.

I think an element of common sense has to come into the equation surely? If inexperienced players are reffing how will they ever learn if incorrect calls aren't corrected? The gentlemanly aspect of the game should really dictate that teams should require the correct decision over and above their own interests. This is what calling your own fouls is all about/shaking your opponents hand/keeping quiet on his shot/not moving in his eyeline etc. The refs decision is his and his alone but if he's unsure of the rule then he should ask more experienced players before making the decision.

Agree with all that.

Of course, some decisions which are wrong, in a local context where there's no score recorder, may never be noticed, for example the referee miscounting but the player has alrady won the frame.

But you are right. Any referee should accept that he was wrong if he is convinved that he mis-saw what happened or gave a wrong score. And I like to think, as you say, that someone acting as a referee, who is unsure of the rule, will seek a second opinion.

The two scenarios of (a) not noticing or not agreeing what actually happened, and (b) not knowing the correct course of action after something happens that isn't disputed, are slightly different but common sense can certainly be applied to both.

[DawRef]

then he should ask more experienced players before making the decision.

That is not always the best course of action. I was told once that an 'experienced player' was reffing a league match and after the yellow was potted, it would not go on its spot. As there was no other spot available, (the rule states it goes as near to its own spot in a direct line with the top cushion), this player was adamant that it went as near to the BLACK spot, which is wrong!
My advice would be, if no qualified referee is present, then as long as both sides agree, even if the decision is wrong, then carry on.

[goku]

hey guys not trying to steer the corse of the thread but when i seen this thread alex higgins came to mind, this referee deffo had the last say,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F07hi...eature=related

[goku]

lol sorry bout spelling error . course*

[magicman]

That is not always the best course of action. I was told once that an 'experienced player' was reffing a league match and after the yellow was potted, it would not go on its spot. As there was no other spot available, (the rule states it goes as near to its own spot in a direct line with the top cushion), this player was adamant that it went as near to the BLACK spot, which is wrong!
My advice would be, if no qualified referee is present, then as long as both sides agree, even if the decision is wrong, then carry on.

You were told by somebody else what somebody else did. So that's hearsay twice removed! The 'experienced player' in question was obviously not very experienced at all in fact as the situation you've described is a common occurance and very mundane compared to some of the scenarios established refs can confuse you with.

[DawRef]

You were told by somebody else what somebody else did

That person was at the match in question. Also, 'the experienced player' had been playing snooker for about 40 years!