Refereeing question

[Cossie]

This week in our match the following occurred and I am sure one of you knowledgeable people can assist.

Player A is snookered and plays to hit last red, misses and hits yellow, referee calls foul and a miss. Player B asks for balls to be replaced. Referee asks players to assist with position of balls during which Player A moves the cue ball with his hand to where he thinks it was. Cue argument between two teams on the basis that it is a foul. Everyone agrees in the end but what is the exact rule, how many is the foul worth and I remember isn`t there something about a players options being slightly different. As per the incident when a player stopped the ball going in off with his hand.

[Souwester]

Good old s3 rule 14:

(h) During such consultation, if either player should touch any ball in play, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The ball touched shall be replaced by the referee, to his satisfaction, if necessary, even if it was picked up.

The player who touches a ball is penalised, not fouled, as a foul would automatically change the order of play, since a foul ends a players turn.

The penalty would be the value of the ball on or the ball concerned, so in your case four points. If the black had been moved by the player then it would have been seven, even if red was the ball on.

[Souwester]

...the incident when a player stopped the ball going in off with his hand.

This was something entirely different. If a foul is committed whilst the cue ball is on the table then the next stroke is played from where the balls come to rest. Dott(?) stopped the cue ball entering the pocket with his fist and managed to knock it away so that it came to rest in the D. Although he had stopped the cue ball from entering the pocket, it stayed on the table and should have been played from where it came to rest, and never became in-hand (until the next player mistakenly picked it up!).

[Terry Davidson]

I've seen something similar a lot in matches where a player needs all the colours to win and he pots the black and then grabs the cueball before it stops moving, even though it's going nowhere near a pocket.

This is technically a foul and 7 away although I've never seen it called as it would be considered very petty, but the non-striker would be within his rights to claim the frame with the foul.

So a word to the wise, if you have a referee and you pot the black you needed to frame let the cueball come to rest first as sometimes emotions can run high in a match, especially in a league team environment, so don't EVER touch that cueball.

Terry

[flame]

This was something entirely different. If a foul is committed whilst the cue ball is on the table then the next stroke is played from where the balls come to rest. Dott(?) stopped the cue ball entering the pocket with his fist and managed to knock it away so that it came to rest in the D. Although he had stopped the cue ball from entering the pocket, it stayed on the table and should have been played from where it came to rest, and never became in-hand (until the next player mistakenly picked it up!).

hi souwester,are you saying if a player picks the white up,it is deemed to be off the table,therefore a foul(obviously)the opponent then plays his shot in hand?another question(i am not questioning your knowledge, i just want to know the answers)if a player has a free ball,reds are still on the table, nominates yellow as his free ball,accidentally or not(i know it doesn't matter which)he snookers his opponent with the yellow,to be called a foul would the reds have to be full ball snookered, thanks for any reply Bill.

[Souwester]

I never assume that posters' questions are bringing in to question my knowledge: I know some rules are quite difficult to get your mind round, and it's not always easy to describe something - it's far better to demonstrate at a table.

Yes, if a player picks up the cue ball it is deemed to be 'forced off the table' and becomes in hand: ie the next player should play from the D.

Section 2 rule 16 defines the conditions for being snookered:

16. Snookered
The cue-ball is said to be snookered when a direct stroke in a straight line to every ball on is wholly or partially obstructed by a ball or balls not on. If one or more balls on can be struck at both extreme edges free of obstruction by any ball not on, the cue-ball is not snookered.


If the yellow is preventing you from hitting both sides of all reds from the position left then it is a snooker, and a foul (as you say, regardless of whether that happened intentionally or by accident). However, if there is another red, with a different colour being the obstructing ball, then you are not snookered and it is not a foul.



It's perhaps easy to imagine the table with the last two reds and two colours tight along the same cushion, arranged RED YELLOW CUE BALL GREEN RED . In that situation, if you have a free ball you would be perfectly entitled to trickle up to either colour, because that colour would only prevent you from hitting the red on the other side of it: the other colour would be the ball which is preventing you having direct contact with the other red.

[flame]

thanks for your reply,it has cleared things up for me.

[The Statman]

I've seen something similar a lot in matches where a player needs all the colours to win and he pots the black and then grabs the cueball before it stops moving, even though it's going nowhere near a pocket.

This is technically a foul and 7 away although I've never seen it called as it would be considered very petty, but the non-striker would be within his rights to claim the frame with the foul.

So a word to the wise, if you have a referee and you pot the black you needed to frame let the cueball come to rest first as sometimes emotions can run high in a match, especially in a league team environment, so don't EVER touch that cueball.

Terry

I have called it in the past! It wasn't to decide the frame but it would have been the player's highest break had I allowed it to stand.

And remember, if you need pink for the frame and get it: Do NOT play a show-off shot on the black with the white still moving! That would be a foul on the PINK shot and would give 6 away (7 if the black goes in), and the pink would be re-spotted leaving 13 points still on the table.

[Krypton]

And remember, if you need pink for the frame and get it: Do NOT play a show-off shot on the black with the white still moving! That would be a foul on the PINK shot and would give 6 away (7 if the black goes in), and the pink would be re-spotted leaving 13 points still on the table.

Have you seen a player do that? That'll certainly nominate him (in top position) for the award "Dumbest snooker player ever"!

[The Statman]

Have you seen a player do that? That'll certainly nominate him (in top position) for the award "Dumbest snooker player ever"!

It has happened a couple of times even on the television, but of course usually when the player is so far ahead that it makes no difference to the frame.

[The Statman]

Here is an interesting report, from The Times on 10 March 1937, about frame 17 of the World Championship semi-final between Willie Smith and Horace Lindrum.

Lindrum led 52-29 on the colours. Smith took the six colours but, after the referee had called “frame”, touched the cue-ball before it stopped rolling, after taking the black.

Lindrum thus won the frame 59-49 instead of losing it 52-56. It had little bearing on the match, though, because it gave Lindrum a 12-5 instead of an 11-6 lead and he crossed the line at 16-8.

[Krypton]

far ahead I've seen it too - but has a player messed up a frame already (so thought) 'won' like that?

[DeanH]

Snookering behind nominated free ball

Situation as stated before, Player A is given a free-ball option by the referee as he cannot directly play any of the Reds, Player A nominates Yellow as the Freeball, he hits the Yellow but, either by volition or accident, he snookers Player B behind the Yellow.
This is not allowed as far as I recall, correct?
What is the penalty?
Thanks
DeanH

[The Statman]

Situation as stated before, Player A is given a free-ball option by the referee as he cannot directly play any of the Reds, Player A nominates Yellow as the Freeball, he hits the Yellow but, either by volition or accident, he snookers Player B behind the Yellow.
This is not allowed as far as I recall, correct?
What is the penalty?
Thanks
DeanH

It will be a foul of 4 points, and of course the opponent will himself receive a free ball.

[Souwester]

Statman is, as ever, correct in the answer he gave. Just to add to it though; the penalty for snookering behind a free ball will be the value of the ball on, should you snooker behind the nominated ball. (s3 r12(a)(vii))

Imagine that only blue, pink and black are left on the table. After a foul you're left snookered on the blue so you're awarded a free ball. You nominate black, but you fail to pot it and leave you opponent snookered behind it. Blue is the ball on, so the penalty would be five.