Ball Moved by Other than Striker

[Hyperonic]

15. Ball Moved by Other than Striker
If a ball, stationary or moving, is disturbed other than by the striker, it shall be re-positioned by the referee to the place he judges the ball was, or would have finished, without penalty.
(a) This Rule shall include cases where another occurrence or person, other than the striker’s partner, causes the striker to move a ball.

After the stroke is made, would it be a foul if any moving ball is disturbed
1. by the opponent player ?
2. by the partner of the striker in a four-handed game ?

Second question is, will it be a foul if the striker's partner or the opponent player, unknowingly, comes to the table and plays a stroke when the striker's turn has not ended ?

(a) value of the ball on by
(iii) playing out of turn


Third question is, will it be a foul if the next player comes and plays the cue ball at rest but before all the other balls have come to rest from the previous striker's stroke ? If it won't be a foul then what would be done ? Will all the balls be repositioned and the previous striker plays or the current striker would play again from the position where all the balls would have come to rest ?

(c) A stroke is not completed until all balls have come to rest.
(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by
(i) striking when any ball is not at rest,

[The Statman]

First question. You say 'after the stroke is made' - well if the balls have stopped and the referee considers the shot to be over then it won't be a foul on that shot but it can of course be a foul on the next shot which hasn't started yet.

Second question: Actually, no it won't be a foul. Fouls are called on the striker. If his opponent's shot has not been completed, then his opponent is still the striker.

Third question: same answer as second. If the next player plays, as you describe, before the previous shot is completed then the oncoming player is "moving balls other than striker". You have quoted the rule concerning what happens in this case.

[Hyperonic]

First question. You say 'after the stroke is made' - well if the balls have stopped and the referee considers the shot to be over then it won't be a foul on that shot but it can of course be a foul on the next shot which hasn't started yet.

If the stroke wasn't completed and the striker's partner or his opponent accidentally or purposely touched any moving ball then it won't be a foul, right ?

Second question: Actually, no it won't be a foul. Fouls are called on the striker. If his opponent's shot has not been completed, then his opponent is still the striker.

Then when does the foul of playing out of turn apply ? Does this foul apply only in four-handed game when, after the previous striker's turn ends, the oncoming striker's partner comes and plays the stroke because the two partners forgot whose turn it was ?

Third question: same answer as second. If the next player plays, as you describe, before the previous shot is completed then the oncoming player is "moving balls other than striker". You have quoted the rule concerning what happens in this case.

If a ball, stationary or moving, is disturbed other than by the striker, it shall be re-positioned by the referee to the place he judges the ball was, or would have finished, without penalty.
So if all the balls except a red have come to rest and the oncoming player doesn't play or disturb the almost coming to rest red but plays some other red, would the previous striker play again from the position where he played his last stroke ? or would the offending striker play again with the repositioning of the cue ball and the red that he played, and any other ball(s) that may have moved as a result of his stroke ?

[The Statman]

Before I start, let me say I hope I've inserted the Quote thingies correctly otherwise this will be mighty confusing!

First question. You say 'after the stroke is made' - well if the balls have stopped and the referee considers the shot to be over then it won't be a foul on that shot but it can of course be a foul on the next shot which hasn't started yet.

If the stroke wasn't completed and the striker's partner or his opponent accidentally or purposely touched any moving ball then it won't be a foul, right ?

[/quote]If the stroke had not been completed and the striker's partner touched a ball, this would be a foul as the striker's partner is essentially considered to be an extension of the striker himself. The 'side' or partnership is if you like considered as one entity.

If the opposing side accidentally touched a ball before the stroke was completed, then it was 'ball moved by other that striker' and the referee would replace it as described in the Rule. (It doesn't have to be accidental but it's easier to imagine that it was. If it was deliberate then a warning for unsporting behaviour under Section 5 may well also be applicable.)

Second question: Actually, no it won't be a foul. Fouls are called on the striker. If his opponent's shot has not been completed, then his opponent is still the striker.

Then when does the foul of playing out of turn apply ? Does this foul apply only in four-handed game when, after the previous striker's turn ends, the oncoming striker's partner comes and plays the stroke because the two partners forgot whose turn it was ?

You are right that the rule cannot apply here.

The 'Playing out of turn' rule would most likely apply in a doubles match, where the wrong partner plays. It could also conceivably happen in singles, though, for example where a player goes for a pot and it looks in, so he carries on and plays for a colour whereas in fact there was a defect in the table and the red did not drop. A bit far-fetched but possible.

However, consider the situation where you pot a red, and then play your following stroke on your choice of colour, but play it before all balls are at rest (say a cannoned ball at the other end of the table). This would NOT be a foul for playing before all balls are at rest; it would be a foul on THE RED SHOT for striking the cue-ball more than once in the same shot - because that shot had not been completed.

Therefore, in fact, the foul for 'playing before all balls are at rest' (Rule 12 (b) (i)) does not ever apply, for more or less the reasons that you identified. Although the Rules have not been officially re-worded, a decision of the Rules Committee held that in that circumstances the 'previous' shot was the one on which the foul had been committed and thus that part of the Rule is redundant.

To quote the late John Street, "However, the Rules Committee have ruled ... that this particular Rule is redundant as, if the striker in a break plays again before all balls are at rest, he has struck the cue-ball more than once in the same stroke. The penalty for this is covered in [Rule 12, subsection] (a) (i) above."

Third question: same answer as second. If the next player plays, as you describe, before the previous shot is completed then the oncoming player is "moving balls other than striker". You have quoted the rule concerning what happens in this case.

If a ball, stationary or moving, is disturbed other than by the striker, it shall be re-positioned by the referee to the place he judges the ball was, or would have finished, without penalty.
So if all the balls except a red have come to rest and the oncoming player doesn't play or disturb the almost coming to rest red but plays some other red, would the previous striker play again from the position where he played his last stroke ? or would the offending striker play again with the repositioning of the cue ball and the red that he played, and any other ball(s) that may have moved as a result of his stroke ?

Let us see what is happening here in detail:
(a) You play at a red, and one of them is sent flying around the table.
(b) I come along (as your opponent) and take a stroke before your red has finished moving. There are three possible consequences of this:
(i) my shot has no bearing on your red; their paths do not cross or affecxt each other at all;
(ii) balls in my shot collide with yours, or would have done if I'd waited till yours had come to rest;
(iii) your red is potted, or causes another ball to enter a pocket.

In (i), there is no problem, and I as the referee would just let things stand. (Having said that, I as the referee would have asked the oncoming player to wait till your red had stopped.)

In (ii), the referee should replace the balls to how they would have ended up after your stroke, because it was your stroke which was interrupted. I would then essentially re-take the shot.

In (iii), the referee should replace the balls that I played and [if red was potted] allow you to score for the red, and then take your rightful shot at a colour - OR [if colour was pocketed] award the appropriate penalty to me before allowing me to (re-)take the shot.

As I hinted in (i) above, the referee should really stop the player from playing until all balls have come to rest, and then no such embarrassing situation can arise. Until the balls have come to rest, the oncoming player is not the striker, so this seems a sensible approach. (A very different situation from if it is the same player continuing a break.)

[Hyperonic]

The 'Playing out of turn' rule would most likely apply in a doubles match, where the wrong partner plays. It could also conceivably happen in singles, though, for example where a player goes for a pot and it looks in, so he carries on and plays for a colour whereas in fact there was a defect in the table and the red did not drop. A bit far-fetched but possible.

In the singles case you have mentioned wouldn't it be 'ball moved by other than striker' instead of 'playing out of turn' ?

[The Statman]

In the singles case you have mentioned wouldn't it be 'ball moved by other than striker' instead of 'playing out of turn' ?

I was assuming that the balls had come to rest from the previous shot.

[Hyperonic]

I was assuming that the balls had come to rest from the previous shot.

Balls moved by other than striker doesn't carry a penalty but Playing out of turn does. You said Fouls are called on the striker. If the striker's stroke and turn has completed and he still plays a stroke after mistakenly thinking that the red he played had pocketed, then doesn't that mean he is no longer 'the striker' because his turn has ended.

Would it be 'balls moved by other than striker' or 'playing out of turn' when a striker's stroke is complete after potting a red and he has paused for a moment in thinking for which color to play next while his opponent, mistakenly thinking that the striker didn't pot the red and it's his turn now, comes in and plays a stroke ?

[The Statman]

The stroke is indeed complete but the Rules make clear that the striker remains such until the referee is satisfied that he has left the table at the end of his turn.

Therefore even if the balls have come to rest, the player who has just been in play can still be fouled if he nudges a ball on the way up from his shot, touches a ball as he walks away (or in lifting the rest etc.) or indeed if he remains at the table thinking it's still his turn!

The shot has been completed but he is still the striker and as such can still be fouled.

In response to your last question, it would be ball moved by other than striker for the same reason - the player considering his colour options is the striker.

[DawRef]

.......... (Having said that, I as the referee would have asked the oncoming player to wait till your red had stopped.)

Are you not then 'aiding' a player?

[Souwester]

Are you not then 'aiding' a player?

No, because you're not stopping him from making a foul, simply from messing up the table which you, as the referee, will have to return to how it was before that stroke.

[The Statman]

It is interesting to re-read this thread now that the rules have been amended, firstly defining in far more precise terms when a shot is completed, and secondly adding that if the non-striker should interfere with any balls he can be penalised as if he were the striker.

My responses to the query were right at the time, but are now wrong.

It is perhaps worth revisiting this threaad for updated answers.