"Needing Snookers" - aggregate match

[The Statman]

We all know that a Miss cannot be called when a player needs snookers. (That's the simple sentence and I know that more words are needed to explain the rule properly. Let's just assume I've done that.)

Now, imagine the situation where the match is decided on aggregate scores. I'm sure there are a fair few leagues up and down the country who have competitions like this. We have one coming up.

So here are a couple of situations in a six-frame, aggregate scores match.

First frame, I'm 34 behind and we're on the yellow. I'm snookered and fail to escape although it was a pretty easy one. I do technically need snookers because I'm 30 behind but of course I don't need snookers in the grand context of the match because there are 5 frames still to play. (If you like, there are 147x5 +27 points available!

Final frame, one red left, the scores for the frame are level. However, I am chasing snookers because I was left with a 50-point deficit at the end of the fifth frame so I do actually need 4 snookers to win thge match but not the frame!

So, in these two scenarios, can the Foul and a Miss be called?

Answers on a postcard, or, preferably, below!

[chasmmi]

Keep watching power snooker and se if they call a miss there?

[thinsy]

In our league we have a cup match played like this. 3 man team each play 2 frames and an aggregate score wins.... The ruling for ours is that each game is played as an individual frame (down to the black being potted regardless of score) and at the end of the 6 frames points are added up!! Can't remember what the ruling is for tied points at the end of frame 6!!!

[Souwester]

Hmmm, my personal feeling is that each frame should be looked at in isolation, and that any decisions on F&M should be made on the basis solely of the scores of the frame in progress.

I'm sure I remember being party to some discussion on this topic many moons ago (probably soon after the new rule book was issued in 1995, but can't remember the outcome. I don't think I've ever refereed an aggregate score match, so it's never been an issue.

Imagine that an aggregate score league match is being played on two tables concurrently: it would be impossible to keep tabs on overall scores of two tables, so perhaps this supports my earlier reasoning to look at each frame individually.

I'll put it to the senior English tutors when they're back from their jolly to Syria!

[The Statman]

Thanks Souwester. We specifically disallow Cup matches (which are aggregate) from being played concurrently on two tables.

The reason it came to light is, surely, the no-Miss-when-needing-snookers Rule is in place because it is illogical that someone would miss under those circumstances.

I can see a position where, let's say, one of us needs snookers in the frame but the points are close in the context of the match. A Miss cannot then be called even though the frame is well and truly open and it is still in either side's interests to clear the table despite the scoreline in the single frame.

Suppose there is 45 points in it on the last red in the last frame - but the aggregate points are dead level. It seems illogical that I can make a halfhearted attempt at an escape, leaving it safe, and not be called for a Miss just because there is a meaningless 45 in the scores.

[Souwester]

Another scenario for you to consider: an aggregate score match of 6 frames. First three players of Team A have breaks of 147 each (wow, that really would be an achievement). As soon as another Team A player pots a ball in frame 4, or a Team B player pots anything other than a black, do you then

a) actually play the remaining frames
b) play the remainder of the match without calling any F&Ms?

[The Statman]

Souwester - yes quite.

But in the principle by which the Miss isn't called when snookers are required I would have to say (b) - the player is not going to deliberately Miss if it results in his opponent needing fewer snookers, or himself needing more.

[alant]

Statman, are you trying to find the answer to the December EASB Referees Quiz??

I would say that if a match is solely decided on aggregate then winning a frame is irrelevant and for the purpose of the rules a player can only need snookers in the last frame based on total scores (or indeed in previous frames if behind by more than 147).

In our league we used to play four-man team cup games based on frames won or aggregate if 2-2. In that case players could need snookers to win the frame in frames 1-3. In the fourth frame it was possible for both players to need snookers!!

We have since changed to playing a fifth frame in the case of a tie.

[DawRef]

First frame, I'm 34 behind and we're on the yellow. I'm snookered and fail to escape although it was a pretty easy one. I do technically need snookers because I'm 30 behind but of course I don't need snookers in the grand context of the match because there are 5 frames still to play. (If you like, there are 147x5 +27 points available!

Final frame, one red left, the scores for the frame are level. However, I am chasing snookers because I was left with a 50-point deficit at the end of the fifth frame so I do actually need 4 snookers to win thge match but not the frame!

So, in these two scenarios, can the Foul and a Miss be called?

Have you seen the Referees December quiz questions on the EASB website? This question (or very similar) has been posted.

Edit: Alant. Looks like you beat me to the same question.

[Welshsteve]

We use cumulative score over 2 or 3 frames in competitions I've played in.

My understanding is that a miss cannot be called if the player who laid the snooker requires snookers, so in this instance, it would have to be based on the cumulative score at that pont in the match.

[Souwester]

This is what the EASB's Director for Referees had to say n the matter:

Where an aggregate scores match gives points for frames won as well as total score, then the F&M would be called on the frame situation only.

Where there is no award for frames won, then a F&M would be called according to the running totals (they should be shown on the scoreboard being used), with the points available (147 per each remaining frame plus points left in the current frame) being the only criteria for a F&M.

[DawRef]

So Have I got the EASB Directors ruling correct:

Where an aggregate scores match gives points for frames won as well as total score, then the F&M would be called on the frame situation only

Aggregate score over 4 frames and Team A is leading 2 - 1. Team A is 36 points ahead of Team B (aggregate score) with one red left in the final frame in which the scores are level. F & M CAN be called.

Where there is no award for frames won, then a F&M would be called according to the running totals (they should be shown on the scoreboard being used), with the points available (147 per each remaining frame plus points left in the current frame) being the only criteria for a F&M.

Same as above but only highest aggregate score wins the match. Team A is 36 points ahead in the final frame (with one red left), but the aggregate scores are level, so F & M can also be called.

[The Statman]

So Have I got the EASB Directors ruling correct:



Aggregate score over 4 frames and Team A is leading 2 - 1. Team A is 36 points ahead of Team B (aggregate score) with one red left in the final frame in which the scores are level. F & M CAN be called.



Same as above but only highest aggregate score wins the match. Team A is 36 points ahead in the final frame (with one red left), but the aggregate scores are level, so F & M can also be called.

Yes I would say you have that spot on.