Freeball rule

[ncyaa]

I read a question on the freeball rule from a Chinese forum.

Usaually I'd consider myself to be very knowledgeable about the rules of snooker but this one I couldn't answer. Here is the situation:

"Player A committed a foul when attempting to pot the green. The cue ball was snookered behind the black.

Player B nominated the black as the freeball and successfully potted it. After the black was respotted on its own spot, the cue ball was snookered behind the black and player B could not hit the green directly."

Here is what the rules said:

(b) It is a foul if the cue-ball should
(i) fail to hit the nominated ball first, or first simultaneously with the ball on, or
(ii) be snookered on all Reds, or the ball on, by the free ball thus nominated, except when the Pink and Black are the only object balls remaining on the table.

So literally player B commited a foul even though he successfully potted the black. I know this can't be true but I read the rules again but could not find an explanation to this. Anyone got an answer?

[Kyra]

You a re not allowed to snooker behind the free Ball. That's correct. The Black was nominated as the Freeball and was pottet correctly. So there is no Free Ball anymore. You literally snookered yourself on the Green. Just bad luck.

[Souwester]

It's not a foul because you've snookered yourself not your opponent!

[Krypton]

I think he knows already what you just said, Souwester, but is trying to make a different point:

The rule does NOT say that it's no foul when you snooker YOURSELF! It is, of course, common sense and logical, somehow, not to call a foul then, but it's NOT what the rule actually says.

Let's call it an imperfection, isn't it?

[DawRef]

Let's call it an imperfection, isn't it?

No. It's exactly the same as potting a red (or a free ball as a red) and ending up surrounded by reds and being snookered on all colours. As Souwester stated, 'You have snookered yourself'. No imperfection. No foul.

[nevets]

Don't see the problem. Once the black has been potted it is no longer the free ball. The player has not snookered himself by the free ball, he has just snookered himself by the black.

[ncyaa]

I think he knows already what you just said, Souwester, but is trying to make a different point:

The rule does NOT say that it's no foul when you snooker YOURSELF! It is, of course, common sense and logical, somehow, not to call a foul then, but it's NOT what the rule actually says.

Let's call it an imperfection, isn't it?

Yes, Krypton, thanks for making my point clear.

OK, let's say once the black is potted, its not longer the freeball so there is no foul. But why don't the rules setters make it clear?

[Krypton]

They still didn't get it I think.

The rule does NOT distinguish snookering yourself or snookering your opponent. It only states:

If, after playing a free ball, a snooker is left on the table, and the once free ball is the snookering ball, the shot is deemed to be a FOUL stroke.

Well spotted - but I'm absolutely sure it won't be handled that way should it occur in a match.

[andy carson]

They still didn't get it I think.

The rule does NOT distinguish snookering yourself or snookering your opponent. It only states:

If, after playing a free ball, a snooker is left on the table, and the once free ball is the snookering ball, the shot is deemed to be a FOUL stroke.

Well spotted - but I'm absolutely sure it won't be handled that way should it occur in a match.

its easy to understand

you play the black and pot it, that shot is then over and the black ball respotted - free ball has ended

you next play the green but are snookered behind the black, your fault for not thinking about the shot

[Krypton]

no no, your simplifying too much now...

I'm with (most of) you that the situation is clear: snookering yourself when playing a free ball is just bad luck or stupid shotmaking, call it whatever you want. End of thread for 99%.

But, if you like to read carefully, argue about the rules, find tiny imperfections or things that could be written better THEN you can read on. And be ready to accept an outcome that does NOT MATCH what you've thought to be right for ages.

First for the free ball:
The freeball ends immediately after the shot ANYWAY, not dependent on what you play for and if you pot successfully or snooker.

In fact, "free ball" is not a specific ball, it's a playing situation described properly in the rules, it arises when a "snooker situation" (criteria 1) is on the table "after a foul" (criteria 2), as long as you are snookered on all balls that are or could be on. In player's slang, of course, free ball is also the ball you elect and go for - but only for that specific shot.

Now for the special foul mentioned, and what it's all about.

The rules DO say:
When in a free ball situation you chose to play a free ball, THEN the following applies:
(b) It is a foul if the cue-ball should
(i) fail to hit the nominated ball first, or first simultaneously with the ball on, or
(ii) be snookered on all Reds, or the ball on, by the free ball thus nominated, except when the Pink and Black are the only object balls remaining on the table.

The rules DO NOT say:
When applying part (ii) of the above, it matters who is the next striker. FACT!

Again, as "slow" as I can possibly say it:

- if left with a snooker situation after a shot on a free ball, and with the nominated ball being the actual snookering ball, then it's a FOUL.
- The ball is NOT a free ball anymore. There is no free ball anymore, the free ball situation was BEFORE the whole shot. The ball per se is a normal ball.

(of course the ref would state a NEW free ball to the incoming player! a NEW one!)

It is unimportant, how the snooker arose, either intentionally, by bad luck (rattling out of pocket, or coming back after a journey around the table) or BY BEING RESPOTTED AFTER A POT. Only the fact that the once elected free ball is now the snookering ball is enought to make the freeball shot a FOUL!

Especially, it nowhere says that "should the elected free ball be potted, in the moment of falling into the pocket it becomes the normal color again and cannot be called free ball anymore after being respotted, so that snookering yourself that way is an exception to the above foul rule"
The rule per se is clear:

- Look at the GIVEN (!) situation after the free ball shot, no matter how it arouse (luck, bad luck, intention, pot...)
- Is there a snooker, then
a) the nominated free ball from the last shot is the snookering ball -> FOUL
b) the nominated free ball from the last shot NOT is the snookering ball -> NO FOUL, you're fine

Nowhere it distinguishes who is the striker, so if the same player remains the striker or not.

[The Statman]

I see what you are saying and I agree it could be worded better.

However, there is an implicit "comes to rest" in the wording, maybe that should just be added to the rule to clarify it fully.