Free ball if foul committed and reds not broken?

[DubboPete]

Hi all,

In a situation where player A strikes the black first from the break, and doesn't disturb the reds, and the white ball ends up on the cushion, between the pockets and in line with the pink spot - does this constitute a free ball situation?

That is assuming that both sides of any red cannot be seen or struck cleanly by the white ball.

Thanks in anticipation

Pete

[DubboPete]

forgot to stipulate which cushion sorry, the side cushion (green ball side of the table) between middle pocket and black ball end pocket...

[147Alexandra]

I don't believe you can be snookered on a red by another red, or a cushion if the red were up against a cushion.

[DubboPete]

Thanks for that, I agree wholly with the cushion aspect, but I was more curious with the pink ball obstructing the extreme edge of the leading red ball, and as the rules state...

"The cue-ball is said to be snookered when a direct stroke in a straight line to every ball on is wholly or partially obstructed by a ball or balls not on."

I suppose each red is 'on', and therefore one red cannot be obstructing another red, but one still cannot see both extreme edges of any red ball, especially with the pink obstructing the leading red...

I hope that somewhere out there a really clever referee can give me the correct ruling, and would be great if someone could point me to a reference online somewhere!! Caused some interesting and lively discussions last night during competition!

[Krypton]

forget about hitting the black or so - let's keep it simple and handle both aspects separately:

- a cushion cannot snooker the cue ball. if a ball, or one edge of it, is not hittable due to a cushion, it's not a snooker.

- a ball on cannot snooker the cue ball either.

this means:

imagine the table set up for a frame to start. the player to break mis-cues the white and it rolls about a meter, ending up in the middle of the table, near blue.

the LAST red, in the row closest to the black, COULD be hit on both sides but the other reds. so this is NOT a snooker and NO free ball. It does NOT matter that the first red, the one closest to the pink, is in fact snookered by the pink, and that this red - and in sequence each red next - prevents the next red from being hit.


to give you a rule of thumb:

imagine the table with ONE red only and think of ALL other reds being removed. now, is it a snooker?

do this for ALL reds left on the table. if you can find a single red that can be hit on both sides, regardless of other reds, than the situation as such is NOT called a snooker. still, cushions "don't count"

[Acrowot]

No freeball. The fact that other reds are in the way of being able to hit both sides on one red does not make a freeball.
:snooker:

[Souwester]

It is important to take note of exactly what the first paragraph of the relevant rule says. The definition of 'snookered' only refers to this situation arising if the direct path to a ball on is obstructed by a ball not on. Therefore a red cannot obstruct you from hitting a red which sits behind it, since they are both balls on.

16. Snookered
The cue-ball is said to be snookered when a direct stroke in a straight line to every ball on is wholly or partially obstructed by a ball or balls not on. If one or more balls on can be struck at both extreme edges free of obstruction by any ball not on, the cue-ball is not snookered.

(a) If in-hand, the cue-ball is snookered if it is obstructed as described above from all possible positions on or within the lines of the "D".

(b) If the cue-ball is so obstructed from hitting a ball on by more than one ball not on
(i) the ball nearest to the cue-ball is considered to be the effective snookering ball, and
(ii) should more than one obstructing ball be equidistant from the cue-ball, all such balls will be considered to be effective snookering balls.

(c) When Red is the ball on, if the cue-ball is obstructed from hitting different Reds by different balls not on, there is no effective snookering ball.

(d) The striker is said to be snookered when the cue-ball is snookered as above

(e) The cue-ball cannot be snookered by a cushion. If the curved face of a cushion obstructs the cue-ball and is closer to the cue-ball than any obstructing ball not on, the cue-ball is not snookered.

[The Statman]

You have to basically judge every single red, each time pretending that it is the only red on the table. If ANY red, when judged this way, is free from a colour obstruction, then it is NO FREE BALL.

If EVERY red, pretending it is the only one on the table, has a colour obstructing the relevant path, then it IS a free ball.

So in the situation you describe, there would be no free ball. If the cue-ball ended let's say between the brown and blue - close to the centre line of the table - then there could be a free ball situation if the blue theoretically prevents the finest edge of the corner red.

[Krypton]

That's what I already suggested, and I think I first read it from the Statman, the very best way to explain the FreeBallOrNot judgement to a beginner:

Look at every single red as if it was the only one on the table, and do that for every red.

[The Statman]

That's what I already suggested, and I think I first read it from the Statman, the very best way to explain the FreeBallOrNot judgement to a beginner:

Look at every single red as if it was the only one on the table, and do that for every red.

Thanks - yes I think I first used it here - still my most useful post ever, even after the Viagra thread the other day!