Ball droping in while at the table?

[Souwester]

If the player is still at the table one might be able to argue that it dropped as a result of his last stroke, and therefore a valid pot. The referee must decide if it dropped because of the thump on the table, but personally this is one occasion when I wouldn't give the player the benefit of the doubt, and would replace the red, warn the player who thumped the table, and let the opponent take the next shot.

If the referee considered that all balls had come to rest and the player was up off his shot, then at what point is he the non-striker, who cannot be penalised?

[The Statman]

Of course we are assuming it is a red and that the next shot is the other player's. He may have potted a red and be thumping the table because the second red stayed over the pocket spoiling his pot at a colour.

In this case, the thump on the table becomes a bit more complicated because he is still the striker.

Nevertheless, I agree with Souwester that a foul cannot be caused. It is still the ball being 'moved by other than striker' even though it is paradoxically the striker that has caused the "other" occurrence that has caused the red to drop.

[dean0]

Can anybody help me with some specifics on this?

I was playing last night, I took the black on into the bottom right pocket (yellow pocket) . The ball sat over the pocket (I honestly do not know how it didn't drop it was literally right over the bag). Anyway, some time later, With only the colours remaining my oponent pots the blue into the top right pocket and the black dropped in. My oppenent definatly did not touch the black.

As far as I can make out, the balls should of been replaced, i.e put back in their last position , not respotted. Is this correct?

If so how would I replace this black? It was impossible to get it to go back into the same position without it falling into the pocket. I tried loads of times and it just fell in. I don't know why gravity took so long to take over in the first instance but replacing the ball into it's former position was impossible as it just dropped into the pocket over and over.

Can anybody clarify what to do in this situation? Or if the balls are to be respotted and not "replaced" if you get me.

Thanks
Dean

[Souwester]

Yes, the ball must be replaced to where it was, if it dropped into a pocket without being touched by another ball. It's always difficult though when you're trying to replace the ball, and you just have to get as close as you can to avoid it falling.

I guess the problem might be if there was another ball in front of the one that fell, and the ball can't be replaced because it is obstructed...

[dean0]

Yes, the ball must be replaced to where it was, if it dropped into a pocket without being touched by another ball. It's always difficult though when you're trying to replace the ball, and you just have to get as close as you can to avoid it falling.

I guess the problem might be if there was another ball in front of the one that fell, and the ball can't be replaced because it is obstructed...

Cheers for the help, there was no obstruction, I remeber looking at the black before it dropped and thinking, why is that still on the table. So when I went to replace it I knew exactly where it was , there was no way I could get it back into the same position, but as close as possible seems resonable to me.

Thanks again

Dean

[Souwester]

I meant to quote the 'Ball on Edge of pocket' rule in my last post:

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.

(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Of course section (c) leads to a debate about just how long is momentarily?

[dean0]

I meant to quote the 'Ball on Edge of pocket' rule in my last post:

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.

(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Of course section (c) leads to a debate about just how long is momentarily?

I read this at the start of the thread which was what prompted my previous question.

I understand the debate on what is a "moment" it had been about 5 mins before the ball was played and it dropped.

I would presume my scenrio falls into catagory (a). There was a stroke in progress but the black ball (that dropped) was not involved in the stroke and therefore is put back and the break continues .

Thanks

Deano

[Bigmeek]

I read this at the start of the thread which was what prompted my previous question.

I understand the debate on what is a "moment" it had been about 5 mins before the ball was played and it dropped.

I would presume my scenrio falls into catagory (a). There was a stroke in progress but the black ball (that dropped) was not involved in the stroke and therefore is put back and the break continues .

Thanks

Deano

a) is correct Deano. There's no definition of what is a "moment" but its measured in seconds rather than minutes. If the black drops when the white has stopped and the striker has left the table then it gets replaced.

[dean0]

The black dropped as the white was traveling down the table and my oppenent was still down on his shot.

The black was put over the pocket (instead of into it) by myself about 4 mins previously

[The Statman]

I meant to quote the 'Ball on Edge of pocket' rule in my last post:

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.

(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Of course section (c) leads to a debate about just how long is momentarily?

I refereed our league pairs final last night and there was an instance of a red trikcling towards the pocket and dropping after 2, maybe 3 seconds of apparently being at a standstill. I allowed it to count.

I have had a few of these crop up in my time - and on almost all occasions I have been able to 'sense' that the ball is going to drop, or isn't, and I have never been wrong! I don't know exactly what it is - a bit like the instinct of knowing where to hit the cue-ball for the required amount of straight before swerve takes effect; it's just experience and feel.

In the end, with seriously borderline instances, you just have to make a call and be comfortable that you can justify it or stick to it if questioned by the player who feels hard done by.