correct points for a foul?

[cazmac1]

Ok say after you potted the red you left the rest for the ref to pick up and he fouls the red surely its the same thing. It would make more sense like you said to give the red as the shot was completed without fouling and the balls had come to a rest (stroke completed) then give the fouls 7 as your now on a colour?

[tornado taylor]

That would be his mistake and replace the balls I would think as he's not playing.

[cazmac1]

My point is when is the stroke deemed to be completed. I would have thought as soon as the white had stoped moving. Look at it another way if I had left the rest on the table a walked around the table to have a look at the potting angle for the the colour that I played for then went back and moved the red what is the foul.

[brazil70]

I was playing a game yesterday and the blue pink and black were all next to each other over the black corner pocket. my opponet was bridging over the balls playing a long red when he droped his cue ( he is 70 by the way) knocking all three balls away from the pocket. He put 5 points up for me and I said it must be 7 as he moved the black. he said that he hit the blue first so it's it's 5 away. My agrument is that if is only 5 there might come a time where it would benifit someone to play a delibrate foul in this way to gain an advantage. All three balls potted into the corner before the foul.
What is the correct points to award?

A classic case of how the rules of snooker could be simplified and make it 7 point penalty for every foul, PS for the record this foul is 5 points as blue hit before black.

[andy carson]

he knocked all three balls away??

then if he didnt hit the black with the cue and claiming only 5 points, it would most likely have been 6 away from hitting the pink as well as the blue wouldnt it

[ste bed]

its a foul to the value of the 1st ball hit in this case blue unless one of the other balls ie pink or black was potted in the process.

[ste bed]

You might be right but look at this way say there is a red over the pocket yet your snooker on it and the blue pink and black are where I said. Now lets pretend that if you leave the red over the pocket on, the guy only needs red a black to leave you needing a snooker, but with a five point foul and pushing the black away from the pocket along with the other 3 balls still gives you a chance even if it is small.

if you mean playing a deliberate foul on the blue to push the black safe? then this would be a deliberate foul and a miss and the balls would be replaced no matter what standard or rules you play to.

[nevets]

On cazmac's second situation, the shot is only over when the ref is satisfied so. If you're using a rest, that would include it being safely removed from the table.

[The Statman]

Ok say after you potted the red you left the rest for the ref to pick up and he fouls the red surely its the same thing. It would make more sense like you said to give the red as the shot was completed without fouling and the balls had come to a rest (stroke completed) then give the fouls 7 as your now on a colour?

This has come up before, and the Rules as they are written currently do not specifically state when a shot is finished, only that it has not finished till all the balls are at rest.

There is a strong logical argument for taking it, therefore, that the shot is finished when all the balls have come to rest, without any other condition.

However, it is universally accepted that the "shot" includes the placing of cueing paraphernalia, AND its removal at the end of the stroke. Thinking of someone bridging awkwardly over the pack with an extended spider, it is immediately obvious that the intention is to include the removal of the spider as part of the stroke, rather than, if a disturbance occurs, it being purely down to chance whether it happened before or after the balls had stopped.

An eagerly awaited revision to the rule is due out soon, I believe, if it hasn't already. It says something along the lines that a shot is not completed until (a) all balls have coem to rest AND (b) any cueing equipment relevant to the shot has been removed from play AND (c) the referee has completed the spotting of any ball as necessary AND (d) the referee has announced the break score.

This does end all confusion once and for all.

[The Statman]

its a foul to the value of the 1st ball hit in this case blue unless one of the other balls ie pink or black was potted in the process.

Well it would be the highest value of any ball hit by the cue - not necessarily the first. But if a ball hit another ball and that second ball had a higher value (and was not touched by the cue) then it is the first ball whose value is called. As you say, unless a higher value ball enters a pocket.

[cazmac1]

Thanks for clearing up the red and rest issue, it makes sense to clear up any grey area with the implements.
Just one more point to make with regard to my friend dropping the cue, all three balls were almost touching and I would almost certainly say that the cue and all three balls were in contact simultaneously. Would this make any difference.

[DawRef]

Just one more point to make with regard to my friend dropping the cue, all three balls were almost touching and I would almost certainly say that the cue and all three balls were in contact simultaneously. Would this make any difference

Yes If the cue had hit all three balls simultaneously, then the foul would have to be 7 points and not five (similar to hitting two balls simultaneously, one is on and the other isn't (e.g red and black hit simultaneously when red is the ball on, penalty of 7 points, not 4).
However, as your friend was adamant that the cue hit the blue first, you will have to take his word for it and give a penalty of five points.

[cazmac1]

Thanks for every one who took the time to answer.

[Acrowot]

Here is another one! Two blokes at the club were playing a local billiard match and they certainly were not billiard players. I have not played billiards for longer than not played snooker, something around 40 years, so have forgotten most things about the rules.

The white of one player came to be touching the red, so he thought that playing directly at the other white would be a cannon. Is this correct?
I did not think so, but not sure and nobody else knew much about billiards. Where are you billiard afficionados?
:snooker:

[Souwester]

It's an impossible scenario under the rules, which require for the balls to be spotted if the striker's ball is touching an object ball.

13. Touching Ball
When the striker's ball remains touching another ball, red shall be placed on the Spot, the non-striker's ball, if on the table, shall be placed on the Centre Spot, and the striker shall play from in-hand.