correct points for a foul?

[cazmac1]

I was playing a game yesterday and the blue pink and black were all next to each other over the black corner pocket. my opponet was bridging over the balls playing a long red when he droped his cue ( he is 70 by the way) knocking all three balls away from the pocket. He put 5 points up for me and I said it must be 7 as he moved the black. he said that he hit the blue first so it's it's 5 away. My agrument is that if is only 5 there might come a time where it would benifit someone to play a delibrate foul in this way to gain an advantage. All three balls potted into the corner before the foul.
What is the correct points to award?

[Acrowot]

I will go with five away. Now if the black had gone into a pocket, then as you know, it would have been seven then.
:snooker:

[finabb]

got to be the highest value ball, I think

[cazmac1]

got to be the highest value ball, I think

Thats what I think, if the blue was struck by the cue ball its the first ball fouled but if someone puts the cue through the balls for any reason it's not a miss so the balls can't be put back so it has to be the value of the higest ball moved ????

[Souwester]

Think of an easier scenario.

You're on the red, but in playing it you clip the blue which then touches the black. What's the penalty? Five points of course because it was the blue that you hit before the red. It was the blue which moved the black so that makes no odds (unless of course the black then entered a pocket!).

It would still be a five point penalty if, in playing at the red, the cue ball hit the blue first but then went on to hit the black ball.

As far as the OPs scenario is concerned, it all depends on which ball the cue made contact with, and whether the blue caused the black and pink to move, or whether the cue actually made contact with the pink or black.

[jrc750]

I think it will be only 5, same as if you hit the blue when going for a red, if the blue then goes on to hit pink and black its still only a 5 point penalty

[nrage]

Thats what I think, if the blue was struck by the cue ball its the first ball fouled but if someone puts the cue through the balls for any reason it's not a miss so the balls can't be put back so it has to be the value of the higest ball moved ????

I've highlighted the section of the rules that probably applies below:

12. Penalties
All fouls will incur a penalty of four points unless a higher one is indicated in paragraph (a) to (d) below. Penalties are:
(a) value of the ball on by

(i) striking the cue-ball more than once,
(ii) striking when both feet are off the floor,
(iii) playing out of turn,
(iv) playing improperly from in-hand, including at the opening stroke,
(v) causing the cue-ball to miss all object balls,
(vi) causing the cue-ball to enter a pocket,
(vii) playing a snooker behind a free ball,
(viii) playing a jump shot,
(ix) playing with a non-standard cue, or
(x) conferring with a partner contrary to Section 3 Rule 17(e).

(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by

(i) striking when any ball is not at rest,
(ii) striking before the referee has completed the spotting of a colour,
(iii) causing a ball not on to enter a pocket,
(iv) causing the cue-ball to first hit a ball not on,
(v) making a push stroke
(vi) touching a ball in play, other than the cue-ball with the tip of the cue as a stroke is made, or
(vii) causing a ball to be forced off the table.

(c) value of the ball on or higher value of the two balls concerned by causing the cue-ball to first hit simultaneously two balls, other than two Reds or a free ball and a ball on.

(d) A penalty of seven points is incurred if the striker

(i) uses a ball off the table for any purpose,
(ii) uses any object to measure gaps or distance,
(iii) plays at Reds, or a free ball followed by a Red, in successive strokes,
(iv) uses any ball other than White as the cue-ball for any stroke once the frame has started,
(v) fails to declare which ball he is on when requested to do so by the referee, or
(vi) after potting a Red or free ball nominated as a Red, commits a foul before nominating a colour.

So.. I think it's 5. Unless he also touched the black with the cue when he dropped it. I would be surprised, given how close together they were, that he didn't touch all 3 balls..

[cazmac1]

You might be right but look at this way say there is a red over the pocket yet your snooker on it and the blue pink and black are where I said. Now lets pretend that if you leave the red over the pocket on, the guy only needs red a black to leave you needing a snooker, but with a five point foul and pushing the black away from the pocket along with the other 3 balls still gives you a chance even if it is small.

[tornado taylor]

I'd have to agree with some of the others it has to be the ball that you first made contact with unless like already said a higher value ball goes in 1 of the bags. I know what your saying.. Isn't that up to the ref to decide if you've made a genuine attemp at a ball and therefore call a miss?

[Timbo]

I think it would be 5 points as the blue was the first ball he cam into contact with.

[franksandellsnooker]

Value of the ball on, value of the ball struck or value of the ball pocketed whichever is the highest. I agree with you Timbo.- as usual !!.

[Timbo]

Haha, thought it was right frank! Because its the first ball you come into contact with.

[cazmac1]

Ok I think we can safely say the foul is five.
I have another for you guys, I was playing today and was playing a red using the rest I potted the red the white had come to a complete stop yet when removing the rest I hit another red which of course is a 4 point foul.
My question is as I did not foul whilst potting the red do I get the one point?

[tornado taylor]

Nooo good try though buddy I like your thinking tho

[The Statman]

Ok I think we can safely say the foul is five.
I have another for you guys, I was playing today and was playing a red using the rest I potted the red the white had come to a complete stop yet when removing the rest I hit another red which of course is a 4 point foul.
My question is as I did not foul whilst potting the red do I get the one point?

No you don't.

If you got the point for the red, the foul would be on the next shot and that would be a foul of 7 for fouling when on a colour but before you had nominated one!