Doubt about free ball

[quintahunter]

Hi there, is it compulsory to nominate a (free) ball when it is over the pocket and completely obvious you're playing it? Player A fouls, player B says "free ball" and after he pots the pink over the pocket, player A says it's a foul because player B hasn't nominated it. Player B didn't say anything because it's obvious. Who's right? Thanks.

[T.C.]

To 'nominate' does not mean you have to verbally indicate which ball you have chosen.
If there are other colours nearby then you should verbally indicate to the referee which one you have chosen. If your chosen colour is out on its own and its obvious then the referee will not require you to verbally nominate, aiming at the ball will indicate your choice to the referee.
In your example, Player A is wrong, there was no foul committed.

[quintahunter]

Even with a free ball? I know this rule when potting red-colour-red-colour, but I thought it was compulsory to "verbally indicate" the object ball when there is a free ball.

[wildJONESEYE]

Even with a free ball? I know this rule when potting red-colour-red-colour, but I thought it was compulsory to "verbally indicate" the object ball when there is a free ball.

Player B is right....the only time you have to nominate when theres doubt which ball you going for....when there's a ball over a pocket that doubt is eliminated.

[andy carson]

Player B is right....the only time you have to nominate when theres doubt which ball you going for....when there's a ball over a pocket that doubt is eliminated.

yep or just say what you are are going for every time to avoid any confusion over the rules.

[wildJONESEYE]

Player B is right....the only time you have to nominate when theres doubt which ball you going for....when there's a ball over a pocket that doubt is eliminated.

now i look at it again im not so sure lol......

[nrage]

The rules are here:
http://www.worldsnooker.com/page/RulesofSnooker

They say:
12. Nominated Ball
(a) A nominated ball is the object ball which the striker declares, or indicates to the satisfaction of the referee, he undertakes to hit with the first impact of the cue-ball.
(b) If requested by the referee, the striker must declare which ball he is on.

13. Free Ball
A free ball is a ball which the striker nominates as the ball on when snookered after a foul (see Section 3 Rule 10).

...

12. Penalties
...
(d) A penalty of seven points is incurred if the striker
(i) uses a ball off the table for any purpose,
(ii) uses any object to measure gaps or distance,
(iii) plays at Reds, or a free ball followed by a Red, in successive strokes,
(iv) uses any ball other than White as the cue-ball for any stroke once the frame has started,
(v) fails to declare which ball he is on when requested to do so by the referee, or
(vi) after potting a Red or free ball nominated as a Red, commits a foul before nominating a colour.

My reading of that, is that if there is a referee, and the referee is in doubt, they will ask and the player must declare which ball they're on. Without a referee I would assume that the opponent could ask before the shot is played if they are un-sure, if they keep quiet then you have to assume they are sure which one you're playing, because it's obvious. It sounds like in this case they kept quiet hoping to get points off the other player.

[quintahunter]

My reading of that, is that if there is a referee, and the referee is in doubt, they will ask and the player must declare which ball they're on. Without a referee I would assume that the opponent could ask before the shot is played if they are un-sure, if they keep quiet then you have to assume they are sure which one you're playing, because it's obvious. It sounds like in this case they kept quiet hoping to get points off the other player.

I sense you're getting the point here. There was a referee, but not an expert one, just someone to put the colours back on the table and replace the white with the miss rule. Nobody was unsure about which ball player A was going to play (as it was over the pocket and no others around it), but when he potted it, player B stated it was a foul because player A hadn't nominated the free ball, as if this was compulsory by the rules. Is it? I guess if the ref is in no doubt, then nothing can be said by player B, but did the ref make a mistake by letting him play the shot without nominating?

[nrage]

I sense you're getting the point here. There was a referee, but not an expert one, just someone to put the colours back on the table and replace the white with the miss rule. Nobody was unsure about which ball player A was going to play (as it was over the pocket and no others around it), but when he potted it, player B stated it was a foul because player A hadn't nominated the free ball, as if this was compulsory by the rules. Is it? I guess if the ref is in no doubt, then nothing can be said by player B, but did the ref make a mistake by letting him play the shot without nominating?

No.

You do not have to declare (verbally nominate), unless the reference asks you to. The ref will only ask if he/she is unsure. You said it yourself, "Nobody was unsure about which ball player A was going to play". So, ref was correct to let play continue and there is no foul.

[quintahunter]

No.

You do not have to declare (verbally nominate), unless the reference asks you to. The ref will only ask if he/she is unsure. You said it yourself, "Nobody was unsure about which ball player A was going to play". So, ref was correct to let play continue and there is no foul.

That's right. Michaela Tabb has confirmed it via Twitter, thanks for your help and interest

[The Statman]

This is one of the amusing cases where some people think the rule exists when in fact it was changed before a lot of them were even born.

It is true that you once had to nominate the free ball verbally and it was a foul not to. However, the rule was changed on 1 December 1973 and since that date it is exactly the same situation as for a colour after a red.

This from Snooker Scene's November 1973 edition:

"RULE CHANGE

As from December 1, players will not be required to nominate their colour when taking a free ball unless there is doubt over which ball the player is attempting.

In other words, this brings the nomination of a free ball in line with nominating after potting a red.

The amendment was introduced by the professional association for the 1973 World Championship and has now been adopted by the B&SCC for all games played under their rules."

[wildJONESEYE]

This is one of the amusing cases where some people think the rule exists when in fact it was changed before a lot of them were even born.

It is true that you once had to nominate the free ball verbally and it was a foul not to. However, the rule was changed on 1 December 1973 and since that date it is exactly the same situation as for a colour after a red.

This from Snooker Scene's November 1973 edition:

"RULE CHANGE

As from December 1, players will not be required to nominate their colour when taking a free ball unless there is doubt over which ball the player is attempting.

In other words, this brings the nomination of a free ball in line with nominating after potting a red.

The amendment was introduced by the professional association for the 1973 World Championship and has now been adopted by the B&SCC for all games played under their rules."

so i was right lol

[Souwester]

Nrage has quoted the relevant rules.

"A nominated ball is the object ball which the striker declares, or indicates to the satisfaction of the referee,..."

To declare is to verbally nominate, but nomination may also be pointing your cue in the direction of a particular ball, or getting a rest out to play a ball away from the other colours etc.

A player cannot be penalised for not nominating his colour, unless the referee has asked him to declare but he didn't respond. This is why referees use the word declare, to ensure they get a verbal response, otherwise if the player said nothing in response to the referee's request to "Please nominate" he could respond that he was nominating by the direction of his cue.

[DawRef]

In a lot of matches I referee in either official or unofficial capacity, players will still nominate verbally which ball they are on, even though it is quite obvious. By verbally nominating, it does take the doubt out of which ball the player is attempting to hit or pot.
However, I once refereed a match where the player got down to pot the blue, which was sitting on the edge of a pocket. He got up and decided to go for the green as it offered better position. In my mind, he had indicated that the blue was his intended shot. However, he had the presence of mind to verbally nominate the green. Technically, I suppose I could have penalised him 5 points if he had not re-nominated his intended colour, though had he not re-nominated, I should have asked him.