50 handicap player highest break ?

[OVER HULTON NUMBER ONE !!]

Hello , Just to settle a chat between mates in the snooker club tonight , Whats the highest match break by a 50 Handicap player ? Regards

[fredkite]

I played a bloke off 50 last season in a cup and he got a 21 break. Suppose it depends which league you play in though. In my local league I play off 10 but last season played in a summer league and I was far better than the local players off the same mark.

[nrage]

Handicap values are relative. So, a 50 handicap player in one club may not be the same as a 50 handicap player at another. That said, where I played the 50+ handicap player(s) would typically make a red and then maybe a colour, seldom more, and if so possibly just another red. Going by that their high break would be 8-9, or perhaps once in a blue moon 2 reds and 2 blacks for 16.

[magicman]

As nrage has pointed out - because there are no national handicaps recognised by the governing body, this is a "how long is a piece of string" question. I gave a 50 start to a guy in a handicap tournament in Redhill who had a 90 break against me. The same guy hit another 90 against a mate of mine who was also giving him 50 start, thus proving it was no fluke. The guy never won the competition enough for his handicap to work its way down.

[CoachGavin]

In my tournament a 50 handicap would have a highest break in the last year of about 30 or so. I give the real beginners 60+ and professionals are on -35 or -43

[Luke Hooper]

i gave a guy 64 head start once in every frame (best of three)... he won the first frame comfortably because all the colours were a mess and i was trying to get them off cushions each shot... the second frame i broke, and he knocked in 23, which obviously puts me quite far behind... after a lot of safety, i changed my game to suit his and just took on 100% pots, made a 38 and 37 in that frame and he didnt pot another ball ending up 1-1... then he broke off, i played safe and he knocked in a 19 and a 12 then missed to leave me in the balls and reduce the deficit once more... was a stupidly difficult match though, i think my handicap was -14 and his was +50 at the time... just crazy!

[nrage]

was a stupidly difficult match though, i think my handicap was -14 and his was +50 at the time... just crazy!

Every match should be equally difficult, for both players, that's how you know the handicap is accurate In this case it may have favoured him somewhat :P Did you win in the end?

[Gerry Armstrong]

It really depends on what the purpose of the handicapping is in the particular event you're playing. Is it simply to give lesser players more of a chance than they would playing off level or is it to even up the results so both players will win 50% of the time?

In every handicap event I've ever played in, the handicaps are set to give the lesser players more of a chance as based on nearly 20 years of watching the best players win every handicap tournament I've ever watched or played in, if the intention is to give everyone an equal chance to win then it has been unsuccessful.

[nrage]

It really depends on what the purpose of the handicapping is in the particular event you're playing. Is it simply to give lesser players more of a chance than they would playing off level or is it to even up the results so both players will win 50% of the time?

Ideally I would say the purpose of a handicap should be to level the playing field, such that the guy who plays the 'best', on a personal level, should win. Essentially that's the latter of the 2 you have above, except that if you have players who are actively practicing and improving they will tend to win more than 50% (but when they do win they are adjusted accordingly so have to continue improving to win more).

My only experience was a weekly tournament where the skill range wasn't massive and the biggest start ever given was 77.. (and in this particular case they accidently gave 87 and the lower ranked player won, on the black - showing that the handicaps were about right IMO)

In every handicap event I've ever played in, the handicaps are set to give the lesser players more of a chance as based on nearly 20 years of watching the best players win every handicap tournament I've ever watched or played in, if the intention is to give everyone an equal chance to win then it has been unsuccessful.

I think there are some situations where a handicap doesn't or cannot make up for lack of ability. Like when you have players capable of winning a frame in 1 visit, even if you give their opponent a large handicap it basically comes down to whether the higher ranked player makes his break, or not.

Add to that, the fact that lower ranked players need more and easier chances to make points, and higher ranked players are better at leaving none, or very hard chances and it starts to get more difficult in an almost compound fashion for lower ranked players.

[Gerry Armstrong]

I would tend to agree that some people will always lose regardless of their start (unless you make it something ridiculous like 130!!) but players at that level playing regularly in tournaments tend to be very thin on the ground.

Where I'm from there are many decent players who are capable of making 30+ and 40+ breaks never getting a sniff in tournaments against semi-pro and pro players. Their handicaps never go up, the semi-pro and pro players never go down and therefore the best players hoover up every single tournament going and the decent players have no chance whatsoever.

In that scenario, the starts are just to give the decent players a better chance of winning that they would have off of scratch in theory, but in practice still virtually no chance whatsoever so not even close to a 50/50 chance.

[nrage]

I would tend to agree that some people will always lose regardless of their start (unless you make it something ridiculous like 130!!) but players at that level playing regularly in tournaments tend to be very thin on the ground.

Where I'm from there are many decent players who are capable of making 30+ and 40+ breaks never getting a sniff in tournaments against semi-pro and pro players. Their handicaps never go up, the semi-pro and pro players never go down and therefore the best players hoover up every single tournament going and the decent players have no chance whatsoever.

In that scenario, the starts are just to give the decent players a better chance of winning that they would have off of scratch in theory, but in practice still virtually no chance whatsoever so not even close to a 50/50 chance.

You don't happen to have a collection of frame scores (and handicaps) for these tournaments do you? I wonder if adjusting handicaps could bring the percentage closer to 50/50 or if there is something 'else' that needs to be taken into account.

I wonder if the problem with conventional handicap systems, and the reason they don't seem to work for the more skilled players is that they do not take into account the number of points required to actually 'win' a frame, or the effect each player has on the other's ability to score those points.

I mean, there is a maximum of 147 points available and every red I pot is a potential 8 points my opponent cannot make, so my own ability to score indirectly affects my opponents possibilities and restricts their potential score. The better players are better at scoring, and harder to score against.

So, the current system which handicaps based on high-break or average-break or similar might give the lower ranked player say a 20 point start, meaning if he makes his average break of 30 he has 50 points. But if his opponent's average break is 50 (thus the 20 handicap mentioned) he could also make his average break (as there are plenty of points to spare) and now scores are tied.. but, there are still points on the table, and presumably the better player will collect more of them, more of the time .. so will win the frame more of the time also. The fact that colours are potted last makes this even worse for the lower ranked player.

I wonder if this describes what you're seeing...

So, to 'solve' the problem you'd need some way to calculate or measure each players affect on their opponent. The ideal system would be a global ranking system based on the ELO system. Then when any two players play each other you can take the difference in rank and use that to assign a handicap/start.

You still need some sort of equation which starts linear (for players who are near in ability) and grows by more the further apart they get, hm.. my math is a bit rusty, is there anyone here who has any ideas?