Clarification regarding miscue causing a) white to jump b) to miss the object ball

[Souwester]

Why don't you try and contact Jan Verhaas or Brendan Moore on Facebook or Twitter. I've asked them both questions in the past and they have both responded quickly, i'm sure they would be able to help you.

In respect of the OP's questions, they have been adequately answered on this forum. In fact this forum always seems to come up with the answer to most queries raised, as there are a number of very authoritative referees here, albeit that they are not famous name tv referees. Nevertheless some are examiners and tutors who are, in some respects, better qualified than the tv refs.

[Camio]

Why don't you try and contact Jan Verhaas or Brendan Moore on Facebook or Twitter. I've asked them both questions in the past and they have both responded quickly, i'm sure they would be able to help you.

I've got an awnser directly from Eirian Williams actually yesterday. I havent heard from Michaela Tabb yet (emailed her from the address given at her site) but Eirian Williams's awnser satisfy me.

The rules are what I tought they were which is why I still dont get why the rulings that occured on the 2 scenarios I've described at the start of the thread.

[best1966]

In respect of the OP's questions, they have been adequately answered on this forum. In fact this forum always seems to come up with the answer to most queries raised, as there are a number of very authoritative referees here, albeit that they are not famous name tv referees. Nevertheless some are examiners and tutors who are, in some respects, better qualified than the tv refs.

I only mentioned those two pro refs as the guy said he hadn't been answered by Michaela and i know they would answer him. I assumed he wanted an answer from one of the tv refs otherwise why I ask one of them?? Didn't realise my comment would offend anyone!!!!! I know there are refs on here who know the rules, but personally I would rather here from the top pro guys as I know for sure they know what they are talking about otherwise they wouldn't be where they are. Again, no offence meant by that, it's just that i've seen them on tv and know who they are.

[fkhan]

Hello guys,

As the title says, I'm looking for clarification regarding 2 things, 2 very specific things. I'd like to have awnsers from refs (if possible) as I know a few members of this forum are refs.

I'm not looking for awnser like "rule states that regarding the jump shot" or stuff like that. I'm looking for something more specific, which includes "intent" by the striker.

The first thing I'm looking for clarification for is this: say the white's on the brown spot, a red is on the blue spot and a red on the pink spot. The striker tries to hit the red on the blue spot, using draw to bring back the cueball to the baulk cushion. In trying to do so, he does a miscue which causes the cueball to jump over that red sitting on the blue spot, falls back on the cloth past the 1st red (which is on the blue spot) and then hits the red on the pink spot.

In this case, the intention of the striker wasnt to make a jump shot and the jump shot is the result of a miscue so in that specific case, thats not a foul of 4, right?

I recall seeing something similar to this on the Pro Tour in the last 12 months or so (could've been the 2010 UK Champ I think) and the ref didnt called a foul, despite the opposing player and the 2 commentators who tought a foul was supposed to be called on that shot.

I assumed a foul wasnt called because the striker never "intended" to make a jump shot, therefore, since he still hit a red first (ball on), the shot was deemed legal.

The second scenario I'd like clarification with is this: ball is near the baulk cushion, about 6 inches off the cushion, between the green and brown, with 15 reds scattered around the pink, black and blue spot, with a tough path to get back in baulk (kinda like after about 8-10 safety shots have been played at the start of a frame).

Instead of playing a thin contact off a red to bring the white back to baulk (which would be hard to do due to the numbers of red scattered), the striker tries to hit a red near the blue spot and draw the white back to baulk. Keep in mind he's about 6 inches off the baulk cushion so he has to raise the butt of his cue a bit. In doing so, he miscues and fails to hit a red despite seeing a few of them full ball).

The ref doesnt call F&M. I clearly recall this happening vs Stephen Hendry and he was surprised a F&M wasnt called, as were the commentators. Hendry then seemed to have asked the ref why no F&M was called.

1 commentator then said, after a few minutes of discussion, that since the intent of the striker wasnt to miscue, that it isnt a F&M.

If anyone recalls seeing these things happening, would be nice to have some feedback. If any certified ref's reading this post, it'd be nice to have your feedback.

I'd like some clarification on this because at the moment, few guys in a league I play in would like some light shed on this.

Thanks guys.

Has this rule remained the same? I just did this today. Ball on was a red. Trying a deep screw shot, I miscued and jumped over it( cue ball did not touch it) but the cue ball touched another red. Is it a foul as stated above?

[DeanH]

Has this rule remained the same? I just did this today. Ball on was a red. Trying a deep screw shot, I miscued and jumped over it( cue ball did not touch it) but the cue ball touched another red. Is it a foul as stated above?

Yes, nothing has changed, still a jump shot, foul.
I think the OP is from US ("draw", etc.) so they are thinking of US Pool where jump shots are allowed.
Any time* the cue ball goes over any part of any object ball (on or not) that it otherwise would have hit, Foul.

As per OP "intent" of the play has nothing to do with the resulting foul:
Ref: "I know you did not mean to jump that red, so I wont call foul on you"


* see exceptions in Rule 20.

[bluenose1940]

What is the situation if the cue ball actually jumps into the air and bounces off the top of the 'intended' object ball but then lands on the other side of it?

[fkhan]

Yes, nothing has changed, still a jump shot, foul.
I think the OP is from US ("draw", etc.) so they are thinking of US Pool where jump shots are allowed.
Any time* the cue ball goes over any part of any object ball (on or not) that it otherwise would have hit, Foul.

As per OP "intent" of the play has nothing to do with the resulting foul:
Ref: "I know you did not mean to jump that red, so I wont call foul on you"


* see exceptions in Rule 20.

Thank you.

[bluenose1940]

Sorry to ask another possible silly question. What if the white jumps and lands on the top of the red but at the same time pushes it away and drops down again in front of it?

[DeanH]

What is the situation if the cue ball actually jumps into the air and bounces off the top of the 'intended' object ball but then lands on the other side of it?

Foul, the cue ball has "passed over" the object ball.
First sentence of Rule 20, "...whether hitting the object ball... or not...".

Sorry to ask another possible silly question. What if the white jumps and lands on the top of the red but at the same time pushes it away and drops down again in front of it?

Part (b), the cue-ball is jumping BUT when lands after a contact it has not "passed over" the object ball and lands on the same side it started, this is NOT a jump shot and so not a foul.


20. Jump Shot
A jump shot is made when the cue ball passes over any part of an object ball, whether hitting it in the process or not, except:...
(a) when the cue ball first hits one object ball, other than a touching ball, and then jumps over another ball; or
(b) when the cue ball jumps and hits an object ball, other than a touching ball, and at the moment of landing on the playing area, the cue ball is not on the far side of the current position of that object ball; or
(c) when, after legally hitting an object ball, other than a touching ball, the cue ball jumps over that ball after hitting a cushion or another ball.

[bluenose1940]

That's answered it. That's what I was saying but not very well, that the cue ball finishes on the same side that it started. Thank you DeanH