Potting the white on final black confusion

[RDBoon]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum, wasn't aware it existed so delighted to have found it!

I need to clear something up quickly with all you experts as to put right someone who I think may well be in the wrong...

I know the rules regarding a 'final black' scenario: as in I understand perfectly that any foul on the black results in the frame being over unless the scores are then tied (at which point the black is respotted and white becomes in-hand).

However the other evening a friend of mine was playing someone who took themselves very seriously, his opponent cleared most of the table in a very high scoring break, but then potted the black only to see the white go in. He instantly turned to my friend and declared that my friend had won due to the white going in off the black!!

Now I know this is the rule when playing pool, but I didn't think it counted in Snooker?!?!
Surely this is just a simple foul on the black, whomever has the most points wins???

Any help clearing this up would be great, I can find no reference to such a rule anywhere online, least of all in the offical rules.

Cheers all.

[Souwester]

The first pot or foul when only the black remains will end the frame, and the winner is whoever has the most points after the seven points score/penalty points are put on the score board. The cue-ball going in off the black doesn't necessarily mean your opponent wins... imagine the scenario of making a 140 break and then going in off the black. There would be uproar if the referee awarded the frame to the non-offender.

[RDBoon]

Thanks for helping to clear this up. This is exactly what happened as the 'offender' made a break of over 100, but potted the black only to see the white go in. He then admitted defeat as a result of the foul!!! Ludicrous I know, but still. Now I know that this is wrong I will make sure it is pointed out.

Many thanks.

[Souwester]

I agree that perhaps the rules are not entirely clear. First, you need to look at S3 r4(a)

4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal; and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.

That ends the frame and s3 r1(f) states the winner will be the person with the highest score.

(f) The winner of a frame is the player or side:
(i) making the highest score;
(ii) to whom the frame is conceded; or
(iii) to whom it is awarded under Section 3 Rule 14(c) (ii) or Section 4 Rule 2.

[snazzydevil]

Gotta question the sportsmanship "other guy".

Too much pub rules 8ball??

[Souwester]

It is because the frame ends with the first foul/pot when only black remains, with the scores at that point deciding the winner, that in the vast majority of cases the player does not (need to) attempt the black at the end of a break, because it makes no difference to who wins.

[RDBoon]

LOL @ snazzydevil!! The 'other guy' wasn't in the wrong here, he was playing with someone who was a serious player and should have known this was not an official rule, he therefore just accepted the win despite getting absolutely hammered. He wasn't to know any better.

I on the other hand argued that this was the wrong result, but the chap who 'lost' wasn't having any of it. When I see him, I'll tell him he didn't lose after all and that he needs to brush up on his rules!!!

Thanks all.

[deant1982]

Haha. Bit of a strange one. The guy making a 100+ break thinks he has lost by going in off the black, and the guy on the receiving end of a century break gets awarded the frame??? Hmmmmm
I'd have expected it the other way around when people don't know the rules, ie the person on the receiving end trying to claim the frame due to the foul, and the break maker having to advise that the frame was already over. :snooker:

[Terry Davidson]

I find it really odd that a player capable of 100 breaks does not know the rules. It's to every player's advantage to know the rules just as good (or better in some cases I've seen and been involved with) as a certified referee. Especially in the UK where there is so much televised snooker and the game is popular.

I would expect this in Canada though as a lot of people here don't know the rules and also play a lot of 8-ball (in pubs usually) and would assume 'scratching' on the black (8-ball) means loss of 'rack' (frame).

Terry

[RDBoon]

I also quite genuinely don't understand how this guy got this so wrong, given how good he is, although I do know he plays more 8-ball these days than Snooker, so maybe in his tiredness he just didn't think about it properly. It doesn't matter, it wasn't in a tournament and it wasn't for money so no one was greatly bothered. But thanks for all the responses.