What's the ruling Foul after a Foul ?

[Neil Taperell]

This happened to me in a League Match this week .......

I went in off a red , so ball in hand to my opponent . As he put the white ball down he fouled the pink with his hand . But he had placed the white ball down just behind the 'D' and left it there after he touched the Pink .

So my question .....do i play the white from where it was put down or do i play it ball in hand from the ' D ' ?

Thanks

[nrage]

Interesting one.. My guess, play from where it lies. I think you only get "ball in hand" when the white leaves the bed of the table, but as it has been placed back by your opponent, despite fouling before/during/after doing so, it hasn't left the bed a 2nd time - so it cannot be "ball in hand" a 2nd time. Could be wrong tho.

[DeanH]

Interesting one
My thoughts are, yes play from where it is but put your opponent back in
I look forward to seeing some "official" replies.

[wanderer]

I would have thought the ball remains in hand for you too, as the way you describe it the foul was committed with the ball off the table (I'm assuming he hadn't released the white before the foul) and a legitimate stroke was not made.

Section 2 Rule 9:

9. In-hand
(a) The cue-ball is in-hand:
(i) before the start of each frame;
(ii) when it has entered a pocket;
(iii) when it has been forced off the table; or
(iv) when the black is spotted in the event of tied scores.
(b) The cue-ball remains in-hand until:
(i)
it is played fairly from in-hand; or
(ii)
a foul is committed whilst the ball is on the table.
(c) The striker is said to be in-hand when the cue-ball is in-hand as above.

I'm sure a qualified ref will be along soon to comment.

[vmax4steve]

It depends on whether he touched the pink with his hand before he placed the white on the table, which would make the cue ball still in hand and rule 9b(i) would apply, or after he put the white on the table which would mean that rule 9b(ii) would apply and the cue ball would not be in hand. So you can see that this scenario is covered.

[choice]

This happened to me in a League Match this week .......

I went in off a red , so ball in hand to my opponent . As he put the white ball down he fouled the pink with his hand . But he had placed the white ball down just behind the 'D' and left it there after he touched the Pink .

So my question .....do i play the white from where it was put down or do i play it ball in hand from the ' D ' ?

Thanks

Yes, you play the white from where it was put down,If you had picked the white up and put it in the D, it would have been a foul 7.

[1blonde]

I would say white would be in hand as he did not place the white in the D properly before touching the pink -

Imagine he put the white on the rail cushion then fouled the pink or still had it in his hand (you cant play it from there can you?)
If the ball has not been placed in the D then you should have ball in hand I would say.

Technically if you think about it a player could replace the ball anywhere on the table then foul if that situation would help him lol
This is why I think it is ball in hand.

Had he placed it in the D then fouled I dont know if that is the case however-mmmmmmm good one.

[Neil Taperell]

I would say white would be in hand as he did not place the white in the D properly before touching the pink -

Imagine he put the white on the rail cushion then fouled the pink or still had it in his hand (you cant play it from there can you?)
If the ball has not been placed in the D then you should have ball in hand I would say.

Technically if you think about it a player could replace the ball anywhere on the table then foul if that situation would help him lol
This is why I think it is ball in hand.

Had he placed it in the D then fouled I dont know if that is the case however-mmmmmmm good one.

Seems like the above post could be correct . But nobody quite sure .

[coomsey76]

I reckon you would defininatly play the white from were it is, remember the Selby Dott incident when Selby picked the cue ball up and it was a foul because the cue ball hadn't left the bed of the table...... Once the cue ball is back on the table bed it can not moved by hand again or it'll be a foul.......

[1blonde]

That Selby Dott incident was a bit different because the ball had not left the bed of the table but in this instance the ball went in off (so it has left the table and is in hand) it has not legally been replaced in the D either/another foul has occured by touching the pink but white has not been replaced 'properly' in the D yet so the ball I would think is still in hand.

This is a good question though and I might be right/wrong but we need a ref to sort it out.

[coomsey76]

9. In-hand
(a) The cue-ball is in-hand
(i) before the start of each frame,
(ii) when it has entered a pocket, or
(iii) when it has been forced off the table.
(b) It remains in-hand until
(i) it is played fairly from in-hand, or
(ii) a foul is committed whilst the ball is on the table
(c) The striker is said to be in-hand when the cue-ball is in-hand as above.

10. Ball in Play
(a) The cue-ball is in play when it is not in-hand.
(b) Object balls are in play from the start of the frame until pocketed or forced off the table.
(c) Colours become in play again when re-spotted.

I would say rule 9b(ii) and then 10(a) would come into play here like a previous poster has said as well......

But like you say it's a great question and I'm sure a ref will be along soon to put us all straight.......

[DawRef]

It depends at which point did he foul the pink. If he had the ball in his hand at the time of fouling the pink (ie, had not placed it on the table) then 'ball in hand' - cue ball is still 'off the table'. If as the ball touched the bed of the table he fouled the pink, then from where it lies.

I had a similar argument with Jan ver Hass some years ago. I argued that if a player was rolling the cue-ball on the bed of the table in deciding where to place it, he touches another ball, then the cue-ball should be played from 'in hand' as the ball was technically 'in his hand' when he committed the foul. However, Jan, said that it would be played from where it was on the bed of the table when the foul was committed, as the cue-ball was 'on' the bed of the table.

[wanderer]

I had a similar argument with Jan ver Hass some years ago. I argued that if a player was rolling the cue-ball on the bed of the table in deciding where to place it, he touches another ball, then the cue-ball should be played from 'in hand' as the ball was technically 'in his hand' when he committed the foul. However, Jan, said that it would be played from where it was on the bed of the table when the foul was committed, as the cue-ball was 'on' the bed of the table.

That's interesting as I would have assumed the ball would be still in hand until released. I think if I was called for a foul while still holding the cue ball my instinct would be to hand the cue ball to the referee. I wonder what he would rule in this scenario ... Ball in hand for my opponent as I had removed it from the table or put the cue ball back in the position it was when I fouled? I assume it would have to be ball in hand.

[vmax4steve]

It depends at which point did he foul the pink. If he had the ball in his hand at the time of fouling the pink (ie, had not placed it on the table) then 'ball in hand' - cue ball is still 'off the table'. If as the ball touched the bed of the table he fouled the pink, then from where it lies.

I had a similar argument with Jan ver Hass some years ago. I argued that if a player was rolling the cue-ball on the bed of the table in deciding where to place it, he touches another ball, then the cue-ball should be played from 'in hand' as the ball was technically 'in his hand' when he committed the foul. However, Jan, said that it would be played from where it was on the bed of the table when the foul was committed, as the cue-ball was 'on' the bed of the table.

This happened to me a long time ago when I first starting playing, my opponent was moving the white around in the D with the tip of his cue after I had gone in off. He lost control of it and it touched the brown. I, like the novice that I was, assumed that I now had cue ball in hand and picked it up to place it elsewhere and the ref called foul and I put it down on the table. The ref explained the rule to me and my opponent then had to play the white from where I had placed it, right under the baulk cushion, so he put me back in. I argued with the ref after the match that as my opponent hadn't effectively placed the white where he wanted it then I assumed that it was still in hand and that I was therefore free to pick it up and place it where I wanted to. To me it didn't matter that the white was in fact on the table because it hadn't been positioned by hand. To allow a player to move the white around in the D with the tip of his cue after placing it on the table could be seen as allowing the player to play a series of fouls before actually playing his shot from the position he wanted.
If the said player then feathered the white at the spot that he had chosen to place it with the tip of his cue he could state that in fact he was re-positioning it again. O J Simpson's lawyer would argue this case and win.

[1blonde]

It depends at which point did he foul the pink. If he had the ball in his hand at the time of fouling the pink (ie, had not placed it on the table) then 'ball in hand' - cue ball is still 'off the table'. If as the ball touched the bed of the table he fouled the pink, then from where it lies.

I had a similar argument with Jan ver Hass some years ago. I argued that if a player was rolling the cue-ball on the bed of the table in deciding where to place it, he touches another ball, then the cue-ball should be played from 'in hand' as the ball was technically 'in his hand' when he committed the foul. However, Jan, said that it would be played from where it was on the bed of the table when the foul was committed, as the cue-ball was 'on' the bed of the table.

But in this thread the cue ball had not been placed 'legally' in the D yet so in the senario mentioned it should be in hand surely?-dont get it-am I wrong then?