I Need a Ruling on This.

[drzdave]

This happened playing 8 ball but could happen in snooker too. My oppenent is shooting the object ball which is right over the pocket against the cushion and on the brink of dropping in. He is almost hooked on it , can barely see the edge of it. He takes the shot and it appears as if he missed making contact with the object ball, but the vibration of the ball hitting the cushion causes the ball to drop in the pocket. Is this a legal shot?....Thx

[jrc750]

Not totally sure, but i think that is classed as falling in the pocket by itself, it is not a legitimate shot on behalf of the striker so no points scored, in fact assuming he didn't make contact with any other ball its a foul, and in snooker anyway the ball would be replaced back on the edge of the pocket

[Souwester]

In snooker, the shot would not be a foul. It is covered by s3 rule 9(b). The balls would be replaced and the shot played again.

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
When a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and:
(a) Being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points previously scored shall count.
(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules (including cases where an infringement would have occurred but for the ball falling into a pocket), all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker;
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed in Section 3 Rule 10, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.
(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

[Souwester]

Similarly, in 8-ball pool under World Rules, the situation is covered by Section U3. The balls will be replaced, and the shot played again.

U. Balls Falling Without Being Hit

1. Any ball that falls into a pocket at any time, without being struck, shall be replaced by the Referee to its original position, no penalty. Time will be re-started and the player in control continues with the visit.
2.Should any ball fall into the pocket after a shot is played and before balls come to rest, providing the fallen ball played no part in the shot, once all other balls have stopped moving, it shall be replaced as described above.
a. If a legal pot was made play continues with the same visit.
b. If no pot was made play continues with the next visit.
c. If a foul was made then the next player will continue with the appropriate penalty.
3. Should any ball fall into the pocket after a shot is played, but before balls come to rest, and the fallen ball would have been struck, then the Referee will replace all balls to their original positions
a. If no infringements of the rules were committed during the shot, or if the cue ball is potted as a result of a ball falling that the cue ball would have otherwise hit, the player who played will replay the shot or may play a different shot
b. If any foul was committed (other than as defined in a) above) then the next player will continue with the appropriate penalty.

[Souwester]

Maybe I misread the opening post. If the striker did indeed miss the object ball then yes it would be a foul and is covered under s(b)(ii) as quoted above, or section 2(c) in pool.

[jrc750]

In snooker, the shot would not be a foul. It is covered by s3 rule 9(b). The balls would be replaced and the shot played again.

9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
When a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and:
(a) Being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points previously scored shall count.
(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules (including cases where an infringement would have occurred but for the ball falling into a pocket), all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker;
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed in Section 3 Rule 10, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.
(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

So even tho the player missed all the balls on the table, it is not a foul ?? find that very hard to believe ????????????

Edit: you posted while i did lol, phew thought i was going mad there

[Souwester]

Your post obviously crossed with my last one!

I suppose the referee has to make the decision as to whether the object ball was missed because it had started to fall, or whether it would have missed if the object ball had remained stationary.

[wanderer]

Your post obviously crossed with my last one!

I suppose the referee has to make the decision as to whether the object ball was missed because it had started to fall, or whether it would have missed if the object ball had remained stationary.

That must be one of the hardest decisions for a ref to make as he would have to be looking directly along the line of the shot to be sure of getting that one right.

[Souwester]

It could well be a tough call, but normally when there is any doubt, such as in simultaneous contact (indeed, even which ball is struck first, as we saw the other week) the referee will normally give the striker the benefit of the doubt. To penalise the striker he would have to be certain the foul had been committed.

[bally969]

section3 rule 9a/ ball over edge of pocket, if it falls in it is replaced, where it was, or on it's spot. ???

[Souwester]

section3 rule 9a/ ball over edge of pocket, if it falls in it is replaced, where it was, or on it's spot. ???

Always where it was... you can't 'spot' a red that falls in, or indeed the cue ball.