Referee counting

[vmax4steve]

There was an incident in last weeks league game where a player played his shot before the referee had spotted the colour he had just potted. The referee had in fact called out the break score, including that particular colour, before spotting it and the player at the table simply assumed that it had been spotted and played the next shot.
I always assumed that the referee should only call out the break score AFTER a ball that has just been potted has been spotted so that the player at the table knows he can carry on the break without having to watch what the referee is doing.
The foul had to be awarded but I told the referee that he was in the wrong and thankfully he saw my argument as correct and said that that was what he would do in future.
Is this correct ?

Also when I am refereeing I always call out the score in the frame by calling the score of the player at the table first and the non striker second without using their names. I never give the difference, even when asked as this should be worked out by the players themselves so any mistakes will be theirs.
Is this also correct ?

[cain29]

As far as calling the scores out rather than giving the difference, I'm not sure whether it is correct or not, but it will definitely be something that I am going to adopt when reffing from now on. As you say the scope for causing any problems if a mistake is made is big and at the end of the day the players should be responsible for knowing themselves. Good tip mate.

[Souwester]

The calling of the score should always be the last thing the referee does, after he has spotted balls, replaced equipment, etc. It is an indication to the player that he is ok to play his next shot. The new 2011 rules do now make it clear that a stroke does not end until the referee has called any score.

The foul was correct, because the player had played his next stroke before the referee had completed the spotting of the colour, and the penalty for that is specifically stated at s3 r10(b);

(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by:
(i) striking when any ball is not at rest;
(ii) striking before the referee has completed the spotting of a colour that is not a free ball;

(or 10(a) in the case of a free ball being respotted).

It is recommended practice that the refere should always call the frame scores, striker first then non-striker, and the rules prohibit the referee answering if asked about the difference in scores. If asked mid-break, the referee should respond along the lines of "Joe Bloggs 28 on the scoreboard and a break of 14, John Smith 53." That obviously implies that the scores are only put up on the scoreboard at the completion of the break!

[Souwester]

BTW.... was this a qualified referee?

[vmax4steve]

BTW.... was this a qualified referee?

No just a member of the opposing team, it was only a league match. Think I'll make a few proposals at the agm for certain rules and practises that referees must abide by.

[DeanH]

Maybe, there could be a Referee Calling Procedure/Guide (like they have with English Pool http://www.epa.org.uk/wrulcalp.php), that clearly show what should be said and when and what order.
If one exists already, great but I have not found it
cheers

[Souwester]

Not a referee's calling guide as such, but a Guide for players refereeing league matches - scroll down to part 9 of this document:

http://www.englishsnooker.com/admin/...t_Practice.pdf

[DeanH]

Yep, read that before and it is useful.

[Souwester]

For my 1000th post, I can tell you I am, as we speak, drafting a Best Practice Guide to referee calling, which I'll submit to the EASB Director for Referees on compledtion!

[DeanH]

woo hoo!
a grand! congrates
sounds very like what we are discussing here
I look forward to reading it

[bally969]

also when a player pots a red, the score should not be stated untill the white comes to rest, as the reff could call, ONE, and the white carries on and falls in a pocket, ie ONE er sorry foul 4

[Souwester]

It's common practice for a ref to call one as soon as the red drops into a pocket, but an experienced ref will never do so until he is sure that no foul will be committed, for example the cue ball going in off, a colour entering a pocket, or a foul being committed whilst a rest is being removed from the table.

The 2011 rules now explicitly say that a stroke is not complete until the referee has announced any score, and calling the score is often taken by the player to mean that h is free to play his next shot. Now when he's just potted a red, in the vast majority of cases he will not do so until the cue ball has become stationary, so a ref calling 'one' early won't be a problem. However, if there are colours moving the ref might well be well advised not to call a score until it has stopped.

[Souwester]

I've drafted a Best Practice Guide to Referee Calling, and have submitted it to Dan Lewis and Derek Budde for their comments. Hopefully it will be published soon.

[DawRef]

I've drafted a Best Practice Guide to Referee Calling, and have submitted it to Dan Lewis and Derek Budde for their comments. Hopefully it will be published soon.

Can you let me (and others interested on this forum) if and when it gets published.

[Souwester]

Most certainly. So far I've not had so much as an ackowledgement from Derek. I'd better check he received it.