freeball rule

[grahamfear]

last night i was playing a friend and got a freeball with only the blue pink and black left on the table so i nominated pink as freeball and potted the blue and the pink is this a foul as i was using the pink as a blue or do i get 10 points as the pink counts as the blue thx for your help grahamfear

[Terry Davidson]

You score 5 points and the pink is re-spotted and you play the pink

Terry

[grahamfear]

so i only get the 5 points no foul?

[The Statman]

As long as you hit the PINK first, then you can pot both the BLUE and the PINK and it is a fair shot. But you only score once!

The blue stays down and your next shot is at the pink.

If you hit the BLUE first, that is a foul because you nominated pink. That would be a foul 5 and both balls would be respotted.

[Souwester]

Although if you're on a red and have a free ball, you'd score one point for potting the colour and on for the red, but when only the colours are left and you pot both the free ball and the ball on then you only score the value of the ball on (and that implies that it is indeed a fair shot).

The blue would remain in the pockt, and the pink would be spotted in your scenario.

[DawRef]

This question of scoring 'double points' with the free ball often comes up. The argument being if I pot 2 reds I get 2 points, so if I pot a free ball (blue as yellow for example) and the yellow legitimately, in the same stroke, why dont I get 4 points.
My explanation is that at the start of a frame of snooker, there are 15 reds and 6 colours. Therefore it is possible to pot more than one red in the same stroke. However, you cannot pot more than one yellow, for example, as there is only one yellow on the table.

[Tom Read]

Interesting read, I never knew that.

So for example, a foul is committed with blue, pink and black left. The blue is over the corner pocket and I'm directly blocked by the pink. I can then nominate pink to knock the blue in for 5pts, leaving the pink over the corner for my next shot? If so, I never knew! I would have played a different shot, thinking I wouldn't be allowed to knock the blue in.

[The Statman]

This question of scoring 'double points' with the free ball often comes up. The argument being if I pot 2 reds I get 2 points, so if I pot a free ball (blue as yellow for example) and the yellow legitimately, in the same stroke, why dont I get 4 points.
My explanation is that at the start of a frame of snooker, there are 15 reds and 6 colours. Therefore it is possible to pot more than one red in the same stroke. However, you cannot pot more than one yellow, for example, as there is only one yellow on the table.

It is a good explanation and I'm sure it is genuinely the reasoning behind it.

However, I would counter that with a different argument - which would support scoring for both balls.

My argument is, tell me another scenario where you can pot a ball quite legally and yet score nothing for it!
(Both balls are scorable if if the other isn't potted - makes no sense to me!)

[Tom Read]

Thinking about it, seems strange that it is legal to pot the blue while nominating the pink as your free-ball. Surely, the pink is now "the ball on" when you nominate it, so I can't see how it is legal to pot the blue as it's no longer "on". If that makes sense?

[The Statman]

Thinking about it, seems strange that it is legal to pot the blue while nominating the pink as your free-ball. Surely, the pink is now "the ball on" when you nominate it, so I can't see how it is legal to pot the blue as it's no longer "on". If that makes sense?

Yes, in a way you are right - but that's the rule and we're stuck with it!

To confirm your earlier point, yes if we're down to the colours and you have a free ball with the 'normal' ball on over a pocket, you can nominate another ball as the free ball and play the plant. If the ball you nominated was the next one up, then you will be well placed to pot that in the next shot because you will have left it hanging over the pocket as well.

[Souwester]

Thinking about it, seems strange that it is legal to pot the blue while nominating the pink as your free-ball. Surely, the pink is now "the ball on" when you nominate it, so I can't see how it is legal to pot the blue as it's no longer "on". If that makes sense?

Nominating a ball other than the ball on as your free ball does not change which ball is on. A free ball is simply the ball you nominate to first strike with the cue ball. It becomes a ball on but the original one doesn't cease to be on.

I agree with DawRef's assertion about the reasoning for only allowing the score of one ball in this scenario, but have to agree with Statman that I don't agree with that logic! By nominating a different colour as a ball on you're effectively creating an additional ball on for that stroke, and any ball on potted should be scored, IMHO. If they're only going to allow a score for one ball then maybe the rules should state that the ball on is substituted for the ball on for that stroke. After all if you nominate a free ball, you're not allowed to first srtrike the actual ball on.

[The Statman]

Yes. The perfect illustration is where you are 18 behind after gaining from a foul, with only pink and black left, and are also left with a free ball.

You nominate black as the free ball and pot it - great, you can still win - but somehow the cue-ball goes round the table and knocks the pink in. Having made no foul shot, and potted nothing but legal balls, you have now lost the frame!

[Souwester]

Yes. The perfect illustration is where you are 18 behind after gaining from a foul, with only pink and black left, and are also left with a free ball.

You nominate black as the free ball and pot it - great, you can still win - but somehow the cue-ball goes round the table and knocks the pink in. Having made no foul shot, and potted nothing but legal balls, you have now lost the frame!

I'll be at the European tutors' and examiners' seminar next month. I think I might just bring this scenario up as a discussion question, maybe for Derek to take back to the IBSF.