I have a question regarding the rules in a doubles match

[cueless]

Hi guys,

I have a question regarding the rules in a doubles match.

I was playing a doubles match and our opponents played out of turn but no one noticed until the guy was on a 36 break.

The guy at the table realised during his break and called the foul on himself.

We didn't have a ref and weren’t sure what to do.

All we could find in our copy of the official WPBSA rules was this,

“If the foul was called for playing out of turn, the offender’s partner will lose a turn, whether or not the offender is asked to play again.”

We weren't sure if any of the 38 points scored would count and what the foul amount should be?

The main problem for us was that the balls potted by the guy playing out of tern meant that there was no longer enough points on the table for us to win so we had to concede the frame anyway.

Also, would it have made a difference if there had been a referee?

I realise we should have noticed but for some reason we didn't?

Any help would be great

Many thanks

Richard

[DeanH]

Obviously with a referee that "out of turn" would/should be noticed immediately and a foul called upon first strike and hence no score to worry about.
In your circumstances, I would say a thank you to the player who called the foul on himself, and that his break is not recorded, turn changes to your team, and then when back to the other team, the same player (the player who fouled last time) would play so the order is back to the correct sequence.
If the fouling-player's break was not included, did you still not have enough on the table? Or did you count his break onto their score?
Interesting that this scenario is not covered in the rules, that I can see, specifically that any points scored before the error is noticed, are they discounted or just the last strike?
cheers

[The Statman]

Another part of the Rule states that, once the next stroke or turn is made, any foul is condoned. Therefore, he will score for all points up to (but excluding) the last stroke played. The foul will then be called on the last stroke played.

The four points would be added to your score, and the next player to play would be the one who normally follows the one who has just come off - regardless of the fact that he shouldn't have been the one playing.

[cueless]

No we didn't count his break and we only took 4 as the foul,

We couldn't win because the guy knocked in the last 6 reds leaving only 27 on the table and when he came to the table there was 75 on!

How many is the foul?

Cheers

[Souwester]

If the original order is ABCD and B comes back to the table after C and makes a break, then his break *WILL* count, excluding the last shot he played befofe the foul is called.

It is A who should have played next for his side (as it should have been D for the other side) and therefore A has the choice as to whether to play the next stroke or whether to ask the offender to play again. Even if B is put back in, A will then play the next stroke, then BCD as per the order set at the beginning of a frame.

[Souwester]

The value of the foul is the value of the ball on, which seems a little odd to me. If, as in my scenario, the order has become ABCB and B is allowed to make a break before thje foul is called, then the value of the foul could be 4, 5, 6 or 7 depending on when the foul is called. Personally a set value of 7 points would seem far more sensible.

[cueless]

Sorry, getting a little confused!

The guys last shot was the final red, he then realised he had played out of turn.

He would have had the choice of green, blue or black as the table had got a bit messy.

So he had scored 38 so far which would have stood but what would the foul be?

[Souwester]

He would have scored 37 points because his last shot was a foul on the red. Red was the ball on for that shot, so the penalty would have been 4.

[cueless]

Thats great!

So thats all the score side of things sorted.

I seem to have been given 2 different answers for who plays next for each side?

[The Statman]

Thats great!

So thats all the score side of things sorted.

I seem to have been given 2 different answers for who plays next for each side?

Yes you have, and that is my fault.

I was confusing myself with an even more complicated situation where the out-of-turn player is asked to play again and then the wrong next player came along!

Souwester is right; it is the player who should have been next that does so - i.e. the player on your side who did not play your side's last turn! (If that makes sense. If in doubt, just read Souwester's answer!)

Incidentally, you mentioned both 36 and 38 in your opening post.

Assuming 38 to be correct, then as per above replies, he would have scored all points up to the one before the last shot he played. He would be fouled on the basis of the value of the ball in the last shot he played. So yes, assuming the foul was noticed when he had just potted a red, he'd score all the way up to the previous colour, and be penalised 4 points for a foul on the red.

[cueless]

Thanks everyone.

I will be more careful in the future!

[DawRef]

I'm not that keen on refereeing doubles, mainly because of the 'out of turn' scenario. It's not too bad if its your local club, as the players will undoubtedly not be in formal attire. A different matter in a county match. I'm sure Statman or Sou'wester will confirm, but I think that a player cannot ask the referee if it is his turn to play (welll he can ask, but I think the referee cannot answer) as it could be deemed aiding the player. About time I read the new rule book anyway.

[The Statman]

I'm not that keen on refereeing doubles, mainly because of the 'out of turn' scenario. It's not too bad if its your local club, as the players will undoubtedly not be in formal attire. A different matter in a county match. I'm sure Statman or Sou'wester will confirm, but I think that a player cannot ask the referee if it is his turn to play (welll he can ask, but I think the referee cannot answer) as it could be deemed aiding the player. About time I read the new rule book anyway.

Yes, you're right. Plus, in a local league fixture, you probably know all of the players anyway! I've never refereed double apart from our local league - not even sure that I've ever known about a doubles tournament outside of a local context.