Jan Verhaas penalty "error" in the Higgins-Dott match - a question

[Souwester]

If you are snookered on the red, and you hit a green, the cue ball then hit the black, is it a 4 point or 7 point foul?
What if the pink is then hit by the white and went into the pocket?

In determining a penalty you have first to determine what the foul was. In your first scenario the foul is that the cue ball did not first make contact with a ball on, so the penalty is four points or the value of the ball not on that it *first* hit... ie 4 points. Going on to hit the black *after* another ball not on is *not* a foul in itself.

In your second scenario there is a *second* foul, which is causing a ball not on to enter a pocket. Since that carries a higher penalty (6 points) than the first foul, the penalty will be 6 points.

[Bruce]

It never ceases to amaze me how poorly some very experienced top professional players actually know the rules. Time and time again they get caugfht out by not knowing the rules, sometimes quite basic points.

True, and the same can apply to the commentators. As I've mentioned in another thread (on commentators' mistakes), John Virgo twice got the three-misses rule wrong this past week. Each time, he said the player would be warned if he missed again because he could hit both sides (i.e. edges) of a ball on. But that's not the necessary condition - the player just has to be able to make full-ball contact with a ball on. He seems to be confusing it with the free ball rule, but it's surprising that such an experienced player and commentator should get such a basic point wrong.

[bally969]

the rules say, if more than one foul is committed in the same stroke, the highest value points will be incured. this has made me think

[bally969]

I would say the higher value would be incured, ie black
The rules state, If more than one foul is committed in the same stroke the higher value points will be incured

[bally969]

So Verhaas was originally correct in calling it as a 5-point penalty! The poor man was being crucified by the commentators for making a mistake and he was right all along. It's surprising to me that the players don't seem to know these rules either. John Higgins kept quiet during the whole episode.

It was the cue that caught the brown, cue ball then hit the blue, higher value foul was a correct call.

[JeeSe]

The highest point foul is awarded, surely that makes sense.

Otherwise whilst playing out of a snooker (behind the brown) to hit a red.... you miss hit it and can see the ball is going to hit the black, and then you could 'accidentally' foul the brown and only receive a 4 point foul, rather than a 7.

Jan Verhaas was correct when he tried to change the score, but then in the confusion put it back to a 4 point foul.

[jw147]

Is it true that jimmys announcing his retirement today at the masters final? If that happens my TV is going in the bin and wont watch this sport again

(why would you retire jim, when you can still win the world)

[The Statman]

Yes, assuming the brown was hit by the cue and not by the cue-ball, then a 5-point penalty was correct, for the higher value foul (4 for the cue touching the brown and 5 for striking the blue first).

Some posts on this thread have been comparing this situation with one where the cue-ball first strikes the (say) green and then the pink. But only one foul has been committed here.

If John Higgins had later touched the pink with his cue, there would have been three fouls in the shot - 1. touching brown with the cue; 2. hitting blue first; 3. touching pink with the cue. The highest of these would be awarded, i.e. 6 points for the pink.

If the brown, after being touched by Higgins's cue, had gone on to touch the pink, that would not have been a further foul because Higgins did not touch the pink. (Unless the pink had then gone into a pocket in which case it is a foul not for touching the pink but for pocketing it.)

The distinction is that, with the part of the rules concerning hitting the wrong ball, it is only the first ball struck which has any significance. Whereas, for other types of foul such as pocketing or touching balls, each ball touched or pocketed represents a separate foul.