Flaws of Women's Snooker

[mikeadyla]

Before I begin, I'll just state I'm female. So I'm not implying anything. I'm just out to improve my own game, and what way better than to analyze my own natural instincts/psychological/physical abilities, right?

I saw some women's competitive snooker today, and there are a couple of differences I saw in the way women play compared to how men play. I've always been frustrated with some issues with my game, but before I always look towards how men play. Today was the first time I ever saw women play competitively in snooker, and I believe it sheds light to some of my own shortcomings.

I'm assuming there are more men than women in TSF. So why is it that women play at a much lesser level in competitive tournaments in comparison to men? I know all the social arguments for it, e.g. women are not taught to play snooker as much, etc.

But from everyone's perspective, is there anything obvious in our tactical/mental/physical skills which you see as showing significant disparity compared to men? I'd like the answers to be as honest as you can, just the way you guys see it. Any pointers you guys see which could help I would also greatly appreciate

[FerruleFox]

You realize you're playing with fire, don't you? lol


I've only seen a few women compete with the men, so my first observation would be that there just aren't enough women playing to be representative of your sex.

My second observation would be that women don't seem to dominate men at any sports/games, so there may be some biological basis...not sure. Further to that thought, I do remember some studies from my university psych days that suggested women have evolved into better multi-taskers (ie, to watch over children while doing other things), whereas men are better able to focus all their attention on single tasks (ie, hunting and sports).

What I do know is if a woman can learn to compete with the men around her, she instantly earns a few notches on the hotness scale. True story.

[sixofclubs]

That was going so well until the last sentence.

[Terry Davidson]

mike:

I believe there is at least one and possibly two good reasons why women can't compete as effectively at snooker as men.

The first is there isn't a big enough pool of players to compete against one another and get better. I've noticed even in the men's game here in Canada that the best players come out of those larger cities which will have a larger pool of players competing against one another all the time. Montreal and Toronto are good examples of this.

The second (possible) reason was told to me quite awhile ago now by a good woman player. She said she had come across a study which showed that due to stone-age culture and now genetics men are much better at understanding spatial relationships as they were out throwing rocks, chucking spears and shooting arrows while the women were doing all the domestic duties back in the cave.

Of the two reasons, I think the first one is the real telling point. In order to get better at a sport you need to be competing against better players all the time. I believe this is the reason the pro game will start improving dramatically over the next few years

Terry

[mikeadyla]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. Not sure why I'm playing with fire though. TSF is a place where anyone can ask for advice, surely.

I do notice certain issues with myself (but of course this might not be true to all women). I'm very hardworking when it comes to the game, but I do tend to play snooker in a cooperative way instead of a competitive way. I also notice that women who excel in sports tend to be dominating in character. So maybe the majority of women are socially taught to be cooperative instead of assertive. I play very well in practice but suddenly in tournaments I'm a bit unsure to assert myself. Again, this might just be me, and I'm working on this issue.

Terry, perhaps your friend is on to something, though I can only speak from my personal experience. I notice that when I first started playing, I tend to look at playing the shots/angles from verbal/memory, instead of playing by visual observation/gut/instinct. That puts almost all of my attention on just potting the balls, giving almost no time to worry about strategy, competition, etc. I know women are generally very good at recalling conscious memories in comparison to subconscious instincts. Again, not sure if all women has this, but as soon as someone corrected me on this, I played way better. (Well, way better is of course relative).

I think your point about competing against better players is also definitely very true. I just wanted to know if there are also some other issues aside from that I would need to acknowledge or overcome.

FerruleFox, no women I know play competitively in snooker so just to be up the hotness scale.

So far I've read not too many books dealing with the mental aspects of sports for women. Does anyone have some suggestions?

[PatBlock]

The second (possible) reason was told to me quite awhile ago now by a good woman player. She said she had come across a study which showed that due to stone-age culture and now genetics men are much better at understanding spatial relationships as they were out throwing rocks, chucking spears and shooting arrows while the women were doing all the domestic duties back in the cave.

I think this is a significant part of the answer.

IMO men have the edge over women in snooker, as in most sports, because the skills needed come from the 'hunting toolbox' set of evolutionary acquired attributes. Success requires precise accurate delivery of controlled power, and an all consuming need to win, very 'male' traits.

Of course, you will always get plenty of women who can beat plenty of men at any given sport, but as a rule, the best men will usually beat the best woman, if you see what I mean.

-

[mikeadyla]

I assumed the rule about men dominating women in sports would apply only in situation involving physical strengths. Then again, maybe not.

I notice men tend to be less competitive after sex (ok, there's a possibility I maybe just made that theory up). Perhaps competing is an evolutionary trait especially inherent in men (but hopefully not exclusive to men alone). Are there any examples of sports areas where women compete quite excellently at?

[DWOT]

I've sent this link to the father of Hannah Jones (Who just competed for England at the Euro's at the age of 15) to see if he fancies inputting to it...

[mikeadyla]

Thank you so much Would definitely help! ;D

[nrage]

Thanks for the advice. Not sure why I'm playing with fire though. TSF is a place where anyone can ask for advice, surely.

I suspect FerruleFox may have been referring to the fact that this is a contentious subject, and the subject of many a long debate, for example the last one I recall was here:
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...sional-Snooker

PatBlock and I had a long discussion about what constitutes "fine motor coordination" and whether the physical, mental or social differences between men and women were more relevant.

My personal opinion is that women may be at a very slight physical and mental disadvantage with snooker, but I'm not at all convinced. For example, I had heard that men are better than women at chess because men are simply superior at that sort of tactical/logical process. However, a friend of mine recently told me of a man who had 3 daughters and despite not being a grand master himself, taught all 3 of them from an early age and all are now grand masters. I don't have any names/facts to back that story up, but it's worth a google to verify/refute.

I still believe the major reason for less women in snooker and for them to be of a lower ability/standard is a social one.

It seems to me that women are less inclined to be competitive, less interested in games of this sort, in general, and get less exposure to this sort of thing as children. Add to that, that places where snooker is played, and the social environment it is played in, are not very welcoming to women - in a way which is conducive to improving snooker ability etc. Next, professional snooker has a hard enough time getting sponsorship etc, and womens snooker even more so I believe. People only want to watch the best, and sponsors will only pay if people watch, so it's a vicious cycle preventing womens snooker from rising up to a level where a professional women snooker player can actually make a living.

[qaasim]

I have always been surprised that the top women players were not anywhere as good as I would have imagined.

I would reason that there is sense in the combination of genetics and lack of competition.

I do remember one full bodied girl I knew who was really good at pool getting frustrated when she was trying to get into snooker. She felt the need to get more down on the ball to improve her playing but couldn't because of her bosom!

There are a lot of women playing American pool aren't there? I have watched some but follow the men more, how do people feel they do?.. I haven't been overly impressed from what I have scene (not to say they aren't a lot better than me!).

[vmax4steve]

It's all about how men and women have evolved to do separate tasks in order to survive in nature. The men are the hunters and therefore have a much better hand/eye co-ordination, spatial awareness, are bigger, stronger, more aggressive and faster. Women are the gatherers, homemakers and mothers and therefore better at multi tasking.
It's pretty simple when you think about it and is proven by the fact that women who excell at hand/eye co-ordination sports and games are a little on the masculine side, and those who excell and are champions are mostly full on lesbians who also have that dominant side to them as well. There is also a competitive motive behind those women who were raised by competitive fathers who didn't have sons and passed on their expectations to their daughters, but unless those daughters have a physical gift for hand/eye co-ordination sports and games they will not excell at them and will turn their competitive nature to other things like business.
Women who don't play any sport or games compete with each other by going to nailbars, the hairdressers, the tanning salon and shopping for shoes.
Those men who believe that it's merely a social thing and that women really want to be like men are merely trying to hide the fact that they themselves have no particuar talent for sports and games and have a subconcious fear of being seen as girly or even gay. Those men are wrong on both counts.

[magicman]

The women 'grand masters' story is definitely true.

Laszlo Polgar wanted to prove that geniuses are made and not born. He trained his daughters to be the best in the world and Judit Polgar became a grand master at 15 years five months, beating the great Bobby Fischer's record by a month. Thus proving that time and effort is the main reason for success.

The 'lesbian' theory above is absolute crock, obviously, as Chris Evert, Anna Kournikova, Jessica Ennis and Gabriela Sabatini prove.

The only criteria proved to have an impact on standard of play, whether a sport, a game, or a musical instrument is the amount of practice - that's it, end of story. You reap what you sow. The boys that play football the most, the ones with the passion, the desire to keep kicking the ball no matter that they've already played for 6 hrs that day, are the ones 'destined' to be pro's.

Tiger Woods had a club in his hand at the age of three. Mozart was playing the piano at 3. Ronnie O was playing hr after hr from the
age of 7 or 8. Almost every Kenyan/Ethiopian gold medal winner had to run 10 k from home to school every day. If you enjoy running, golf, snooker, football, guitar, piano, violin, or tennis then it's not hard work practicing all those hours, it's fun.

The only truth out there, is that to be really really good at anything, anything at all, you must work real HARD. People don't really want to hear this truth. They want easy answers, short-cuts, and apocryphal stories of talent requiring no effort.

[qaasim]

Although that is true, no matter how much any girl trains she is unbelievably unlikely to drive as far as Woods, return at the pace of Federer or Punch as hard as Tyson!

I don't think anyone is deluded to think that you don't have to work extremely hard to have even the smallest chance of excelling in a sport but what is interesting is man's dominance in sports other than the strength dependant ones above.

He trained his daughters to be the best in the world

Not quite... one of those sisters was the only female to get in the top 10 rankings for chess (she got to number 8), which is amazing but how come no other woman in history could get in there, or even better? When I look at some of the snooker/pool female pros I am quite shocked at the level of skill compared to some (albeit very good) amateur male players. I think it is an interesting subject and in my opinion is not simply down to them not starting young enough and practising non stop.

Anyway there are quite a few young girls getting into snooker now so we shall see what there future holds in terms of the non women's snooker circuit, I really do wish them the best but am not holding my breath for one in a crucible final with Trump or the likes!

...While at the same time I'm not sure why they wouldn't/shouldn't be?

[FerruleFox]

The one sport where men and women should excel equally is darts.

But there aren't any women in the top 20, are there?