Flaws of Women's Snooker

[mikeadyla]

I don't mind controversial opinions. I just want to get to get down to the core issue.

Qaasim: the question is right. Everyone suspects not a Judd Trump will appear amongst a woman, but why shouldn't there be? Is it just a stereotype or is it a real issue that needs to be pinpointed at?

Someone mentioned to me that there's also the social issue where when men try to impress women, they pretend to be smarter, bigger, more successful, etc. When a woman try to impress a man, they pretend to be lesser, lighter, and to a limited extent, I know that some even act dumber, in order to avoid men getting intimidated. I know not all of it is a conscious decision, but to a certain extent, many of us conform to this well, let's say "stereotype". What is the rationale behind this, and does it reflect our game on the table as well? I know many men suddenly play extremely well when a good looking woman is watching. Does the average woman react in the same manner when a man is watching? Probably not. I think a lot of women compete for themselves, their internal standards, and so motivation can even possibly lessen when there are men watching, as most women don't judge themselves by other's expectations.

Also, when men dominate in sport, a lot of them already conform to the basic instincts of men (competing, etc). When women wants to excel in sports, most of us tend to move away from the basic psychological features of a woman, which means there are more obstacles to overcome (unless they're naturally endowed with competitiveness, etc). Maybe this just means that it takes more hard work from a woman to excel amongst men, because the entire sports structure is built around traditionally male traits.

It is also possible that these are not the real reason why. and actually it's just a matter of time, and that times are changing. I mean, women a long time ago were expected not to be smart enough to vote, or to study. So it could just be a stereotype women just need to psychologically break away from, which takes time.

[LittleMissAlexa]

mike:

I believe there is at least one and possibly two good reasons why women can't compete as effectively at snooker as men.

The first is there isn't a big enough pool of players to compete against one another and get better. I've noticed even in the men's
game here in Canada that the best players come out of those larger cities which will have a larger pool of players competing against one another all the time. Montreal and Toronto are good examples of this.

The second (possible) reason was told to me quite awhile ago now by a good woman player. She said she had come across a study which showed that due to stone-age culture and now genetics men are much better at understanding spatial relationships as they were out throwing rocks, chucking spears and shooting arrows while the women were doing all the domestic duties back in the cave.

Of the two reasons, I think the first one is the real telling point. In order to get better at a sport you need to be competing against better players all the time. I believe this is the reason the pro game will start improving dramatically over the next few years

Terry

i largely agree Snooker is one sport where there should be very little difference as iots more a mental sport than physical one after all women can learn geometry as easily as men can so it must be a social difference

i honestly believe men need to be more accomodating and less sexist

Shame Reanne isnt a member here here input would be great, Or Allison Fisher

[mikeadyla]

i largely agree Snooker is one sport where there should be very little difference as iots more a mental sport than physical one after all women can learn geometry as easily as men can so it must be a social difference

i honestly believe men need to be more accomodating and less sexist

Shame Reanne isnt a member here here input would be great, Or Allison Fisher

Are you female too? (Just basing on your username.) Maybe u can give me some input on this. Although I'm one myself, I haven't competed in women's snooker before so my experience on this is very limited.

[LittleMissAlexa]

Are you female too? (Just basing on your username.) Maybe u can give me some input on this. Although I'm one myself, I haven't competed in women's snooker before so my experience on this is very limited.

Last time I looked yes, I find in snooker clubs theres a very macho air about them u know lads playing ladys whistling plus playing partners are thin on the ground so u end up just playing urself

The Problem with snooker its played largely by roarcous 20 something men who spend as much time at the bar as at the table same with pool in bars

And also playing with men you get the back seat driving that they do which is patronising and annoying and u know where u wanna stuff the cue (the old double entedre regarding the brown)

[qaasim]

Someone mentioned to me that there's also the social issue where when men try to impress women, they pretend to be smarter, bigger, more successful, etc. When a woman try to impress a man, they pretend to be lesser, lighter, and to a limited extent, I know that some even act dumber, in order to avoid men getting intimidated.

I know not all of it is a conscious decision, but to a certain extent, many of us conform to this well, let's say "stereotype". What is the rationale behind this, and does it reflect our game on the table as well? I know many men suddenly play extremely well when a good looking woman is watching. Does the average woman react in the same manner when a man is watching? Probably not. I think a lot of women compete for themselves, their internal standards, and so motivation can even possibly lessen when there are men watching, as most women don't judge themselves by other's expectations.

I would certainly agree with this (accept for me playing well when a woman is watching!), however other than starting out I cannot see this being prevalent in serious players. I would find it hard to believe that any sport lover would lower their skill for this reason, due to the game being their passion and the inward and outward competitiveness that stems form that. Maybe though, there is another genetic element originating from wanting to get the sympathy of the 'cave man' and to give the impression of submissiveness? (I think although these can be fought you have a long time before you can weed them out!)

I'm not so sure about the expectations bit, I think that there is a lot of expectation of women to be seen to be going against the old grain! (making them still judging themselves by others non stereotypical expectations)

Also, when men dominate in sport, a lot of them already conform to the basic instincts of men (competing, etc). When women wants to excel in sports, most of us tend to move away from the basic psychological features of a woman, which means there are more obstacles to overcome (unless they're naturally endowed with competitiveness, etc). Maybe this just means that it takes more hard work from a woman to excel amongst men, because the entire sports structure is built around traditionally male traits.

I would agree, but sport is on that side of the nature of men and women isn't it? Women's lib combined with nurturing have got women out of that construct and in some cases super competitive. Going back to the previous quote, if this is the case there is nothing more anyone can do to change women's poor status in non-physical reliant sports... But there is hope for the future

It is also possible that these are not the real reason why. and actually it's just a matter of time, and that times are changing. I mean, women a long time ago were expected not to be smart enough to vote, or to study. So it could just be a stereotype women just need to psychologically break away from, which takes time.

I would think it is a combination of almost everything talked about in this thread.

The question I am left with is:

This implies that women need to shed all these feminine instincts/traits, can they and would they want to?

Obviously I wouldn't think a generalised answer could be reached!

u know lads playing ladys whistling

also playing with men you get the back seat driving that they do which is patronising and annoying and u know where u wanna stuff the cue (the old double entedre regarding the brown)

The clubs you go to sound horrendous, surely if someone acts like that toward you get them told to shut up or be thrown out?!?

If the managers don't do anything or the people there don't support you 'not taking it', I would go somewhere else. Having moved both to Plymouth and then more recently Sheffield, I was shocked at the first clubs I joined in both areas. The people were really quite racist and acted pretty horrible altogether toward me. It took some guys jumping me in Plymouth and a hint of it on the cards in Sheffield before I searched around and found a better club.

I actually signed on TSF before moving to Sheffield to ask about good clubs, I purposefully used my first name as my user name so I could hopefully not find a racist one!

...Anyway In both cases the 'better' clubs were miles away but I was soo glad I moved. In hindsight I wished I had not felt I deserved to be treated as the decent person I am in the $#*tty places that they were and had just realised the need to find somewhere better.

I know some clubs where there is no alcohol and I know plenty where the bar and snooker are separated and you can even get your own room for standard or slightly over standard prices. I can't really appreciate where you are coming from and I don't know if you have the double whammy of appreciating where I do but it sounds like you have a point that many places need to change... I just think unless your on a mission to subject yourself to scum, limit it by finding a nice place where people treat you as you treat them, surely there is one around?

[mikeadyla]

Qaasim, some of those you quoted was not mine, but LittleMissAlexa's

Terrible that you found a racist one. Qaasim, that's a Muslim name, yes? My name is Adila so that's a Muslim name as well but I didn't particularly encounter any experiences of racism/sexism or religious intolerance in the Netherlands. When I first begin snooker, I actually met tons who helped me play though I was clearly a beginner who couldn't hold a cue. Also they didn't treat me differently as a woman, but that is also because the country is very gender progressive.

To a limited extent, when I returned back to my home country (Malaysia), I felt treated differently as a woman trying to play snooker (people insisting they give me handicaps even when I didn't need any), but that could be because of the internalization of sexist values (or maybe they just assumed I would suck).

[qaasim]

Qaasim, some of those you quoted was not mine, but LittleMissAlexa's

Terrible that you found a racist one. Qaasim, that's a Muslim name, yes? My name is Adila so that's a Muslim name as well but I didn't particularly encounter any experiences of racism/sexism or religious intolerance in the Netherlands. When I first begin snooker, I actually met tons who helped me play though I was clearly a beginner who couldn't hold a cue. Also they didn't treat me differently as a woman, but that is also because the country is very gender progressive.

To a limited extent, when I returned back to my home country (Malaysia), I felt treated differently as a woman trying to play snooker (people insisting they give me handicaps even when I didn't need any), but that could be because of the internalization of sexist values (or maybe they just assumed I would suck).

Oops, I knew who I was quoting, just forgot to change the names! (done now)

Glad you've had a good time playing snooker in the clubs over there!

Now that I'm back in London I am comfortable in all the local clubs!

[LittleMissAlexa]

Oops, I knew who I was quoting, just forgot to change the names! (done now)

Glad you've had a good time playing snooker in the clubs over there!

Now that I'm back in London I am comfortable in all the local clubs!

The Dutch are a lovely tolerant country