Another free ball conundrum.

[caesar]

noFreeBall.jpg

In this situation, which happened at our club a while back, the player coming to the table has ball in hand after his opponent has potted the cue ball. We are on the last red ball, and as you can see the ball is trapped perfectly between two colours.

Is it a free ball?

The opponent suggested that, even though at first glance it would look like it was, due to both sides of the red being covered, in actual fact if you place the white directly next to the red, then the extreme angles of view actually do hit the "VISIBLE" edges of the red. Think about it. In actual fact there is never a time when you can hit both 90degree edges of any ball.

What do you think?

[The Statman]

Indeed, no free ball.

My article, Free Ball – How to judge if you have one, discusses that exact scenario.

Paragraph 3 "Playing from the D" and Diagram no.3 (attachment in that post) illustrates an almost identical situation.

[Souwester]

It might seem odd, but because, from a position nwhere the cue ball is virtually touching the red, you can play to both left and right edges, so it isn't a free ball.

[The Statman]

The opponent suggested that, even though at first glance it would look like it was, due to both sides of the red being covered, in actual fact if you place the white directly next to the red, then the extreme angles of view actually do hit the "VISIBLE" edges of the red. Think about it. In actual fact there is never a time when you can hit both 90degree edges of any ball.

What do you think?

Just to add to this, the bit you are highlighting is the important bit.

Because the usual situation is over several feet, we visualise it as hitting the two opposite sides of the object ball. But, as you point out, that is never possible - it is "nearly possible" but never "actually possible".

As you say, when the cue-ball is very close to the object ball, the definition of hitting "the finest possible edge" looks a bit strange because the two extreme edges require aiming in almost completely opposite directions.

[mist again]

This is freaking me out.. Does this suggest that the player with ball in hand is obliged to place the ball as shown in the pic? Surely from any other point in the D, it has to be called a free ball....
Doesn't it???

[ste bed]

This is freaking me out.. Does this suggest that the player with ball in hand is obliged to place the ball as shown in the pic? Surely from any other point in the D, it has to be called a free ball....
Doesn't it???

i was thinking the same i would love to read a prof refs view of this as i think it is a free ball.

[The Statman]

The Rules state that a free ball is called if you are snookered from every point in the D.

Souwester has confirmed this and is a Grade 1 referee and Examiner as well as a thoroughly knowledgeable and good bloke!

Does this suggest that the player with ball in hand is obliged to place the ball as shown in the pic? Surely from any other point in the D, it has to be called a free ball

Of course, the player is not obliged to play from there. But he cannot have a free ball because he does have a non-free-ball position available to him.

[FOXMULDER]

I wonder what would happen if you moved the yellow to the left (in the diagram), so it's directly in line with the cue ball.

You couldn't play the left side of the red without committing a push shot on the yellow.

So, in that case, even though you can still "see" both finest edges of the red - surely it would be a free ball?

[The Statman]

I wonder what would happen if you moved the yellow to the left (in the diagram), so it's directly in line with the cue ball.

You couldn't play the left side of the red without committing a push shot on the yellow.

So, in that case, even though you can still "see" both finest edges of the red - surely it would be a free ball?

No but you would then have ample room to place the cue-ball on the other side!

[FOXMULDER]

OK... but imagine if it wasn't in the "D", just regular play.

Then it would definitely be a free ball, despite the fact you can possibly hit both finest edges? Would the rule assume that you cannot play the shot without "pushing" the yellow?

[Souwester]

The question is, can you play the cue ball to both the left and the right, hitting the object ball *extremely* finely, without hitting a ball which is not on?

If there was say 1mm between cue ball and red, then if the yellow was at least 1mm away, or thereabouts, then you could still play towards the yellow hitting the red first before the yellow, so no free ball. If the yellow was touching the cue ball, then that would obviously preclude you from playing to the left, so it would be a free ball.

Remember that simultaneous contact with both a ball on and a ball not on is a foul.

[FOXMULDER]

If there was say 1mm between cue ball and red, then if the yellow was at least 1mm away, or thereabouts, then you could still play towards the yellow hitting the red first before the yellow, so no free ball.

1mm? How would you play that without "pushing" the yellow?

[Souwester]

1mm? How would you play that without "pushing" the yellow?

With great skill and dexterity!

[The Statman]

1mm? How would you play that without "pushing" the yellow?

Play it so softly that the cue-ball only moves 1mm!

I'm afraid the free ball judgement only takes account of whether a hit is available on the finest edge - if it results in a push shot, that's nothing to do with it; you're not snookered just because you have to play a push shot. And a free ball is given if you are snookered.

Another scenario is to imagine the red on the lip of the middle pocket, resting against the jaw towards baulk. No colour anywhere near. With the cue-ball , say, by the pink spot it may be possible to hit both edges of the red - but to do so would result in the certain in-off (in fact, the thin-edge contact could occur actually overhanging the pocket). Now, you cannot claim a free ball just because the extreme edge would result in a foul - only if a ball prevents the thin-edge contact.

Likewise with the push shot - the yellow may mean that a push shot is inevitable but UNLESS the yellow ACTUALLY PREVENTS the finest edge contact being achieved, then no free ball can be allowed.

[Souwester]

More seriously, the practical aspects of playing the stroke are not really taken into account. The fact is you can, theoretically, play the stroke, so no free ball.

Another scenario to consider. The cue ball is tight on the baulk cushion exactly one balls width away from the right cusion. The last red is in the jaws of the right top pocket, with the black immediately in front of it, tight on the cushion. The pink is a fraction over a ball's width away from the black, to the left. There is just 1mm of the red poking out. In theory there is a straight path from cue ball to red, so a F&M would automatically be called. An almost impossible shot to play, but the rules say F&M should be called.