how many misses at amature level

[buddfridgeman]

If there is a rule or general understanding I would like to know, playing in a semi final 1-1 best of three, I was 17 points behind but was giving 28 points start so was catchig up with only one red left, a failed long pot lead to me coming to the table snookered just behind the black, black on its spot red down on the baulk line with balls in the way, my only escape was a bend around the black of one cushion tons of side but not a natural angle, really had to get it sliding of the cushion, really really tough shot could have played it 20 times and not hit it, anyway got called a foul and a miss 7 times giving 21 points until i needed snookers 38 behind and 35 on,I did get one shot which missed by about 5mm and all my other efforts between 1-12" Now I know the rule for pros but how about us, again got within about 5mm having travelled lets say 13ft, but unless I hit this ball it was going to be a foul and miss, I dont see how this can be right because if abilty is considered then there could have been no doubt that my efforts were fair, obviousley the ref thought that giving enough shots I would eventuall hit it , and stuck to his guns..very sore point though, losing a semi in this way.any rule ?

[The Statman]

As far as the Rule is concerned, the judgement is made purely on the basis of each shot, so technically whether it was the first attempt or the 15th should not affect the judgement of each individual shot.

However, as a referee, I would not call it if it became obvious that this was the closest you could reasonably expect to get.

If I thought you had an alternative route available which you had not attempted - and were instead playing a different route which, from what you described, was a very difficult one - then I would call a Miss on each and every attempt made by your route.

Did you ask him or query his decision? You are perfectly within your rights to question the referee's decision (although he might not change it).

Bottom line - each shot is judged on its own merits - was it the easiest route? Was it hit hard enough? Was too much side put on? Was the attempted route simply not available? These are all questions the referee will (hopefully) have asked himself when coming to his decision.

[buddfridgeman]

Hi thanks, no I didnt question the ref wish I had, there were lots of rumbles each time a shot was missed and yeah behind the black right side of the table cut off, red I had to hit on the right and a ball stopping me coming off one cush, middle bag stopping me using two cush escape, I play a lot at not a bad level so know my way around and this was tough.

[magicman]

I lost a semi this year myself in similar circumstances. Unfortunately before the game starts the rules are the same for both players, and on this occasion you were the one to suffer, as was I.

I think the miss rule needs revising so that its the same for every player, whether pro or amateur. 3,4, or maybe 5 misses and then you move on with the game. The problem with the rule as it currently stands is that an awful lot of amateur leagues ignore the rule completely. People argue that players choose a harder escape to leave the balls safe etc, but a lot of frames are decided by misses where there are only one or two reds left and the intention of most players is just to hit the ball on. It's got to the point where the 'best choice' of shot can often be to refuse the pot, even when it's reasonably comfortable and to play the snooker.

[Terry Davidson]

The problem with the 'Miss' rule is not that it needs to be changed but rather that the intent of the rule should be followed.

What happened is the pro referees were instructed by the WPBSA to interpret the rule not as a 'MISS' rule but rather as a 'MUST HIT' rule FOR THEIR PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS who play on (almost) perfect conditions.

When the rest of the amateur refs and players saw this on TV they figured this is the way the rule must be interpreted but it's not written that way and although it's a subjective call on the referee's part, as a referee myself with a difficult snooker where the player comes reasonably close I would not call a 'MISS'.

Unfortunately, the fellow who organizes our official ranking tournaments here believes it should be 'MUST HIT' no matter how difficult the snooker is and this is said to be due to there being no referee for all the matches, although one can be called in to witness the escape attempt.

If the pros want to play that way I think that's fine as they should be able to hit 99.9% of snookers but us amateurs play on tables with dodgy cloth, dodgy cushions, dodgy cue balls half the time plus most of us don't have the skill level of the pros.

Now we are left in the situation where a player will play a good snooker rather than take on a pot and try and run out and this happens all the time in situations with mis-matched players in handicapped tournaments.

Terry

[Souwester]

The trouble is that people concentrate on Section3 rule 14 'Foul and a Miss', and forget the basic definition of a Miss given in Section 2:

21. Miss
A miss is when the cue-ball fails to first contact a ball on and the referee considers that the striker has not made a good enough attempt to hit a ball on.

The basic criterium should, therefore, be a judgement call as to whether the player has made a good enough attempt to hit a ball on. In doing so, the factors are simply the ability and experience of the player and the difficulty of the snooker.

[sharkster63]

Been there Terry, I agree with you. Now when did he stop calling miss, after you needed snookers or before, I always thought that he should have stopped before you put yourself in snookers required mode.?
if all refs and players are aware and using this rule it makes for some unhappy instances but also avoids allot of arguments. And makes the Refs job tolerable. This changes the game and will possibly allow a player who cant pot 2 balls in succession to advance, esqeciall when its only best of 3.
I think I would personally prefer playing with a must hit rule unless the same Ref is used for all games, I think it is the way to go.
Nothing worse than getting 6 misses and then opponent does not even get one'
Cheers,

[magicman]

When the rest of the amateur refs and players saw this on TV they figured this is the way the rule must be interpreted but it's not written that way and although it's a subjective call on the referee's part, as a referee myself with a difficult snooker where the player comes reasonably close I would not call a 'MISS'.

The trouble is that people concentrate on Section3 rule 14 'Foul and a Miss', and forget the basic definition of a Miss given in Section 2:

21. Miss
A miss is when the cue-ball fails to first contact a ball on and the referee considers that the striker has not made a good enough attempt to hit a ball on.

The basic criterium should, therefore, be a judgement call as to whether the player has made a good enough attempt to hit a ball on. In doing so, the factors are simply the ability and experience of the player and the difficulty of the snooker.

This is exactly what should be avoided when you implement rules though. When a subjective call becomes the rule then your idea of what a miss is can be different to someone else's idea of what a miss is. Therefore it becomes a judgement call on behalf of the ref, which then takes into account the ref's own talent on the table, his experience and ability as a player and as a ref, his ability to judge others, his capability of judging the difficulty of snookers, his impartiality, etc. Rules should not be open to this level of interpretation, or any level of interpretation at all in my opinion. None of this has any place in assuring a match is played fairly between two teams or players.

I agree with you, Terry, that in the pro game a ref is essentially calling a 'must hit' rather than a miss. If that's the case then change the name to the 'must hit' rule and make it universal across the board but limit it to 3,4,or 5 attempts. Every amateur league then can play the entire rules of the game and amateur ref's won't get pilloried by opposing sides for personal judgement calls. Pro's won't be giving 30,40, or 50 points away as a result of a fluked snooker either!

[Souwester]

But a lot of refere's decisions are judgement calls. Trying to decide which of two balls which are close together, was hit first by the cue ball, especially if they've been hit at pace, push shots (especially where the cue ball and object ball are very close together, judging whether there's a free ball, judging whether the player can see a ball on full ball. In all of the instances the referee has to make a judgement, and, therefore is subjective. One referee's decision of these may well be different from another referee's call. Just because these rules are black and white, as written in the rule book, doesn't necessarily make them any easier or objective to call.

[TheBallBreaker]

Just a quick and narky point but 7 misses has to be more than 21 points given away, 28 at least.

[The Statman]

... If that's the case then change the name to the 'must hit' rule and make it universal across the board but limit it to 3,4,or 5 attempts. ...

The problem that you are always going to have with limiting the number of misses (whatever you make the limit) is that a player, on that last attempt, is by Rule not under any obligation to make a valid attempt. It would soon be realised that, as an extension to that, you might as well make a definite Miss situation on the first and second etc. attempt because you will soon reach the 'last' attempt which will be free from being called Miss. On that last attempt, just leave a reasonably safe position and you've got out of it giving away 12 or 16 points, depending on the limit of attempts, reasonably unscathed.

You can come back at me with the ungentlemanly conduct rule but that is ... hey presto ... a subjective decision!

My suggested solution, which I would genuinely like to see trialled, is that it is a limit of 3 (or whatever) attempts, after which the opponent can have the penalty points OR the balls replaces - but not both.

[magicman]

Yeah I quite like your solution Statman.

I think giving away, say, 16 points in misses is enough of a reward for any single shot though. After all 7 points is the most you can achieve for a pot, so why should you expect 30 points for a snooker? Or, say, 24 points for a fluked snooker? Even if the last attempt is relatively poor, the incoming player can still choose to play from where the ball lies or put his opponent back in.

[TheBallBreaker]

One thing that annoys me is that you can lay a perfect snooker and make impossible to hit the required ball and you will only get four points for it as you can't call a miss on a shot that is impossible to hit.