Cue+Cueball+cushion=Foul?

[PatBlock]

Is it a fould if your tip, the cueball and a cushion are all in contact at the same time, like a push shot?

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[Souwester]

Is it a fould if your tip, the cueball and a cushion are all in contact at the same time, like a push shot?-

Interesting one.

This is the S2 definition of a push stroke:

19. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball:
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion; or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

In answer to your question, then, the answer is 'it depends'! It depends on whether the cue ball was already touching the cushion before the tip made contact with it. If it was then the cue ball (provided there isn't too much pressure) will not have moved so (a) cannot apply. If the cue ball was slightly off the cushion before the stroke, then it's a case of the tip remaining in contact after the forward motion of the cue ball, even though the cue ball has come to a halt.

[PatBlock]

Interesting one.

This is the S2 definition of a push stroke:

19. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball:
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion; or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

In answer to your question, then, the answer is 'it depends'! It depends on whether the cue ball was already touching the cushion before the tip made contact with it. If it was then the cue ball (provided there isn't too much pressure) will not have moved so (a) cannot apply. If the cue ball was slightly off the cushion before the stroke, then it's a case of the tip remaining in contact after the forward motion of the cue ball, even though the cue ball has come to a halt.

I see, OK thanks very much. I wasn't aware of this part of the rules:

except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

"Almost" and "very fine" are quite vague definitions aren't they, interesting though.

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[APK]

Well, if the cue ball is touching the cushion and you play directly towards the cushion centre ball then there will almost certainly be a push shot. Playing at an angle will give you a better chance of making a legal stroke due to the give in the cushion. Still difficult though. I would take each shot on its own merit. I am sure it is possible to play this shot legally. Allbeit very difficult.

However in the absolute wording of your question then yes, obviously you can play this shot legally. You do it every time you play from the cushion. (Yes Statman, I know.....pedantic).

The ambiguity of the Rule that you have picked up on is something I use to allow me leeway to make a Rule in the best interest of the game in progress by judging the ability of the player and the situation left. Sometimes this shot is a lot harder than at others.

[PatBlock]

However in the absolute wording of your question then yes, obviously you can play this shot legally. You do it every time you play from the cushion. (Yes Statman, I know.....pedantic).

Yes of course. I didn't think of that, very good. Nothing wrong with a bit of pedantry, rules were made for such.

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[Souwester]

Well, if the cue ball is touching the cushion and you play directly towards the cushion centre ball then there will almost certainly be a push shot.

Why? The cue ball has nowhere to move to, so it can't commence forward motion (unless the shot is played with a great deal of strength).

[Souwester]

I see, OK thanks very much. I wasn't aware of this part of the rules:

except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

"Almost" and "very fine" are quite vague definitions aren't they, interesting though.

Yes, it's one of many areas which are down to referee opinion. It seems that even professional referees let players get away with murder when it comes to playing a fine edge. Certainly most of those shots could be played a lot finer than they are, but then the player wouldn't get the object ball safe!

[cantpotforshíte]

19. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball:
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion; or...

Doesn't this part of the rule make every shot a push shot?

[Souwester]

19. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball:
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion; or...

Doesn't this part of the rule make every shot a push shot?

Technically yes! Especially with shots played with a lot of drag, where you push through. If you've ever seen any ultra slow motion shots, it's surprising just how long tip and cue ball are in contact when the ball starts moving. It's another of those rules where everyone knows what it is intended to mean, and the referee has to judge acordingly.

[vmax4steve]

My definition of a push stroke is when the tip of the cue, the cue ball and the object ball are all touching and moving at the same time.
As for playing the cue ball into the cushion, it would be deemed to be a double hit if the cue ball was off the cushion, but if already touching it then there is no reason to call a push shot as there is no object ball involved.
I was once snookered behind the pink with the cue ball against the black cushion with the pink touching it full ball with only two directions to hit the cue ball without moving the pink, into either corner pocket. Instead I played the cue ball into the cushion and found an angle to get the cue ball up the table. Got nowhere near the ball on but was deemed to have made a legal stroke out of an impossible snooker and no miss was called.

[Souwester]

My definition of a push stroke is when the tip of the cue, the cue ball and the object ball are all touching and moving at the same time.

But part (a) of Rule 19, quoted above, makes it clear that an object ball is not required to be involved for there to be a push stroke.