Rules question - "non verbal" nomination of ball on

[Joe99]

Suppose a player has just potted a red.
An easy blue is available, or alternatively a more difficult pink.
The player lines up as if to go for the blue, then stands up and walks to the other side of the table and addresses the cue ball as if going for the pink.
He goes back and forth a couple of times while deciding which shot to play.
While walking around the table towards the blue, he inadvertantly disturbs the brown.

What is the penalty? Is it:

(1) 4 points, the value of the ball disturbed

(2) 5 points because he his body language at the time sugests that he was going to play the blue. (That was the shot he was walkng towards at the time)

(3) 6 points because the last ball he line up on was the pink

(4) 7 points because he had still not indicated unambiguously which ball he was going to play at.

[elvaago]

If he has not actually called the colour yet, I would say it's a 4 point foul.

[RaNeN]

I think 6 because thats the shot he lined up for.

Let the Ref's here decide!

[The Statman]

7 points; fouling a colour before nominating a colour.

It is a difficult one; as you say it could be 5 or 6 – but I think 7 is the only one that can properly be applied in this case.

If the player has 'nominated' a ball and has since got up and is reconsidering, I would say he has withdrawn that nomination.

[DawRef]

I agree with The statman.

As he has not stated his "nominated ball" (Section 2, 12(a)), the penalty is 7 points. (Section 3, 12(d)(vi)).

[The Statman]

I'm glad you agree with me, Sir. It would be no good if two refs disagreed with each other!

[Sarmu]

The thing I'm wondering is does a player always nominate a colour? If the colour is a simple and obvious shot, I see the player don't nominate that colour. In some situations I've heard referee has nominated the colour for the player, but sometime the referee never said anything.

Now in a situation the OP described, I would say it is a 7 point foul, since the player never nominated any colour, but you could also argure since he was going for the pink, and still is, he just walked around the table and accidentlly touched the brown.

Also in a situation the player goes back and lines up for the blue again and fouled on the brown, how much point would that foul be? as obviously the player is going for the blue.

[Dave B]

If the referee is clear about what shot is being played (ie playing at the blue but fouling the brown) then the penalty is 5pts. In the original question there hadn't been any colour declared and the player was not playing at a ball and so therefore as the statman and dawref correctly state, it would be 7pts.

[The Statman]

The thing I'm wondering is does a player always nominate a colour? If the colour is a simple and obvious shot, I see the player don't nominate that colour. In some situations I've heard referee has nominated the colour for the player, but sometime the referee never said anything.

Now in a situation the OP described, I would say it is a 7 point foul, since the player never nominated any colour, but you could also argure since he was going for the pink, and still is, he just walked around the table and accidentlly touched the brown.

Also in a situation the player goes back and lines up for the blue again and fouled on the brown, how much point would that foul be? as obviously the player is going for the blue.

The term 'nominate' is taken as 'indicating which ball to the satisfaction of the referee' – therefore, in most situations getting down and lining up your shot towards one colour is adequate.

If it is unclear (such as when more than one colour is in a similar direction, when snookered, or when touching a colour), the player may be asked by the referee. Often, the player will, out of habit, call the colour verbally. In this instance the referee will always repeat the call, just to make certain that he's heard correctly.

I remember once refereeing in Portsmouth and this guy called "green" and I repeated "brown" – it was quite amusing at the time but it does remind one of the importance of repeating the call.

[ronnieisthebest]

Statters you refereed in portsmouth??

[Dave B]

We've all made mistakes.
They crucified the last bloke that didn't make any!!

[DawRef]

Right. Lets try and put this to bed once and for all.

Joe99 - in this case, and, if I was refereeing, the penalty is 7 points because the player has not indicated to the satisfaction of the referee (me) what colour he is on. (Sec 3 Rule 12(d)(vi)). If he carried on going back and forth, I would probably ask which colour he is going for. Then, if he committed a foul before making his stroke, I could apply the appropriate penaty. If he changed his mind, it would be up to him to tell me, otherwise the 'Foul and Miss' rule comes in. I don't really want to explain this but I will if I have to.
C**p - if he nominates 'pink' changes his mind, doesn't tell the ref and hits the blue, Foul and a Miss, penalty 6.

Elvaargo - you are wrong (see above).

Finally, if the referee is unsure of what colour the player is going for, he should ASK!!!!!
If the player doesn't answer, and goes for a colour, the penalty is 7, even if its the black (Sec3 12(d)(v)). Again if the player makes a foul before nominating a colour the penalty is seven.

If there are any professional referees reading, perhaps they would also like to comment. I think I've covered the situation adequately. Next question please.

[The Statman]

Yes I think you have covered it perfectly, Sir, but I must say I think you could have been a little less abrupt in your comments aimed at individuals.

PS I believe in your sentence

...
Finally, if the referee is unsure of what colour the player is going for, he should ASK!!!!!
If the player doesn't answer, and goes for a colour, the penalty is 7, even if its the black (Sec3 12(d)(v)). ...

you meant to write, "...even if it's not the black."

[Dave B]

I likethe colours. Anyway - perfectly explained. Let's move on with slightly more friendly banter.

[DawRef]

Aaaaarrrgh!!!!!! I give up!!!!! I know what I meant!!!!