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  • How to cure the 'kicks' problem. The answer!

    Hi everyone,

    My name is Marcus, and I work as a Organic Chemist for Johnson & Johnson. The people who make Johnson's Baby Powder. LOL.

    (The reason I have explained my job is because there is some slightly 'technical talk' in this post, and I don't want people to think that I'm just some kind of nutcase who is making it all up as he goes along.)

    I am also a confirmed supporter of 'all things snooker' and a lover of the game.

    I mentioned in my other thread HERE that I have been testing a possible solution to the 'kicks' problem.

    Well, basically, I'm pretty sure that I have found the answer.

    Steve Davis explains HERE that, at the microscopic level, snooker balls are not smooth. I have actually looked at the surface of a snooker ball with a scanning election microscope. (The guy in the Physics Lab thought I was barmy. LOL). And I can tell you that, under a scanning election microscope, the surface of a snooker ball looks something like a miniature mountain range. So Steve Davis is definitely correct about snooker balls not actually being smooth at the microscopic level.

    Later in that video, Steve Davis then goes on to explain how 'kicks' occur because of increased friction between the cue-ball and object-ball. This increased friction causes the cue-ball and object-ball to attempt to 'stick together' on impact - resulting in what we call a 'kick'.

    We don't know what the root-cause(s) of this increased friction is. It may be chalk related, or it may be because snooker balls are made from a different compound than they used to be. It may be because some kind of residue from the cloth manufacturing process is sticking to the balls. Or we may just get more 'kicks' because the balls are lighter nowadays (and therefore tend to bounce into the air more easily) than the balls we used to use years ago. Or it may be all these various factors combined together. Or it may be something else entirely. We just don't know for certain.

    What we do know, however, is that it is NOT completely due to static electricity. This is because the amount of static electricity necessary to make a 142 gram snooker ball jump into the air would be absolutely enormous - definitely enough to give you a nasty electric shock. (Although I do accept the possibility that enough static electricity may be generated by friction on the cloth to make excess chalk stick to the cue-ball. Maybe the Number 10 cloth they use has something in it that creates extra static electricity on the cue-ball. We can suspect many different causes, but they are just suspicions. We do not actually know the root-cause(s) that are responsible for the 'kicks' problem.)

    So, as we cannot eliminate the root cause(s) of 'kicks' (because we don't know for certain what they actually are), the only viable solution is to lubricate the balls to lessen the chance of the cue-ball and object-ball attempting to 'stick together' on impact. (i.e. by lubricating the balls, we will reduce the friction between them.)

    But you just cannot use any lubricant. This is because hitting a cue-ball can accelerate it to 20 mph in just a fraction of a second, and the resulting friction temperature between ball and cloth can easily reach 250°C. LINK

    My first experiment was with a household wax polish, but it was only partly successful. Basically, the anti-friction effect did not last very long. After that first experiment, I quickly realized that household wax polishes such as Pledge/Mr sheen etc are obviously not designed to be used at high temperatures, and they can break down before reaching 250°C. And, when they do break down, they turn into a sticky residue instead of a lubricant. It goes without saying that this would not be good.

    As an interesting side note, whilst researching various other lubricants, I found that some of the components of the oil in human skin (Sebum) can still be effective as lubricants at around 250°C. (I suspect this may be one of the reasons why older, well handled sets of snooker balls 'kick' a lot more rarely than brand new sets of snooker balls.)

    However, because I did not have an adequate supply of Sebum on hand (LOL), I decided to try a few high-temperature industrial lubricants. And I finally found one that was perfect.

    It is called Super Lube Teflon Lubricant, Oiler. There are two similar products. One is a grease and one is an oil. You do NOT want the grease product, you want the oil product. The item number of the oil product is 34233. You can buy it from HERE.

    To use it, put ten drops of the product on a clean handkerchief, then scrunch up the handkerchief a few times to distribute the lubricant. (If you then leave the handkerchief overnight, the lubricant will distribute itself through the handkerchief a lot more evenly.)

    Then, use this 'lubricant' handkerchief to polish a complete set of snooker balls. Then use another clean handkerchief to polish the balls again. (You will not wipe all the lubricant from the balls by doing this. You will just remove the excess. Some of the lubricant will stay in the microscopic pits and gullies on the surface of the snooker balls.)

    You will find that this procedure will definitely prevent ALL 'kicks' for at least fifteen frames of snooker. Then, after fifteen frames, just repeat the lubricating procedure again. (The first time I tried this I got a slight 'kick' on a slow run-through shot after playing twenty one frames. The reason I say to re-lubricate the balls every fifteen frames is to give a reasonable safety margin.)

    I have now used a single 'once lubricated' handkerchief to polish a BRAND NEW set of Aramith Tournament Champion SuperPro1G snooker balls eight times (after each fifteen frames) and neither myself or any of my practice partners has had one single 'kick' in one hundred and twenty frames of snooker.

    I'm think I'm safe in counting that as a successful experiment.

    The great thing about this Super Lube Teflon Lubricant, Oiler product is that, because Teflon is the 'slipperiest' substance known to man, You only need a tiny amount of it to achieve the desired anti-friction results. This product is great because the amount you need is so small you won't even know it's there. So you don't have to worry about getting it on the cloth, your hands, or your clothes etc.

    The other remarkable thing I have found about this product is that, not only will it prevent ALL 'kicks' for at least fifteen frames of snooker, it will also NOT cause you to miscue more often when applying extreme side or deep screw.

    I assumed that, because the cue-ball is lubricated, a player WOULD tend to miscue more often when applying extreme side or deep screw. But I have tested this extensively with several different practice partners, and you definitely don't miscue more often. I don't know for certain why this is, but I suspect it must be because the chalk on the cue-tip penetrates deep enough into the microscopic pits and gullies on the surface of the cue-ball to obtain sufficient grip between the cue-tip and the cue-ball.

    Also, when using this lubricant, I should add that neither myself, or any of my practice partners, have noticed any difference in the angle of throw from the balls themselves or the angles the balls take off the cushions

    So there you go, an amazing miracle cure!

    But honestly, the thing I find most amazing is, why am I the first person (that I know of, anyway) to come up with a solution to this 'kicks' problem?

    Let's face it. It's not rocket science, is it?

    If something is sticking together that you don't want to stick together - then you lubricate it!

    I am not particularly clever. In fact, in my work lab alone there are at least eight people who are a LOT cleverer that me.

    So, in the whole country there are probably MILLIONS of people who are a LOT cleverer that me. And I suspect that at least a small percentage of these MILLIONS of people are snooker players.

    Basically, what I'm trying to say here is - I'm pretty sure that I cannot be the first person to think of using a specialized lubricant to prevent 'kicks' from occurring!

    So, I ask myself, and everyone else, why am I still watching professional snooker players get 'kicks' that can determine the course of frames and sometimes even entire matches?

    Is there something blocking this (pretty obvious) cure for 'kicks' from being implemented in professional snooker?

    Do the cloth or ball manufacturers not like the idea of it or something?

    Personally, I suspect that Aramith might not like to admit the fact that you need to apply something extra (that they do not make) to their Tournament Champion SuperPro1G snooker balls to get them to work properly. (I am probably being a bit hard on Aramith here. It may not be Aramith's fault. It may be the cloth manufacturer's fault. Who knows?)

    Or maybe it could be something more sinister? Maybe it's something like Barry Hearn thinking that unpredictable 'kicks' make snooker more interesting to the general public? So the 'powers that be' are deliberately not implementing a solution to the 'kicks' problem.

    If anyone has any ideas, please feel free to post and let me know.
    Last edited by Achamian; 12 February 2013, 03:20 AM. Reason: typos

  • #2
    I know you say you are only using a very small amount but surely in a club situation this would build up on the cloth eventually?
    sigpic A Truly Beakerific Long Pot Sir!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally Posted by Achamian View Post
      ... and I don't want people to think that I'm just some kind of nutcase who is making it all up as he goes along...
      nope, you were right first time
      Up the TSF! :snooker:

      Comment


      • #4
        I have thought about lubrication a couple of times, even of PTFE as lubricant...

        The problem here is - I agree with RGCirencester - the buildup on the cloth.

        Maybe I'm too anxious here, but if I had my own table, I wouldn't want any kind of additional lube in/on the cloth.

        EDIT: But anyway: Thanks for testing and letting everyone know!

        Comment


        • #5
          Perhaps you reduced kicks by reducing friction between balls, but there's still the cloth. It is very uneven surface up close. And the cueball is quite light, very sensitive to bad striking, you could easily send it airborne just ever so slightly. I think Stephen Hendry is correct when he says that the cause of most kicks is poor ball striking.
          Other cue games like US pool use heavier balls (from the same manufacturer Aramith, same compound, same density) which are harder to get airborne, less sensitive to bad striking, and also a true napless cloth like Simonis 860. From my experience playing both games under typical average club conditions, kicks are far more likely to occur at snooker.

          Comment


          • #6
            Send your test results to the WPBSA and the BBC and let's see this tested on the telly.

            As for the lubrricant getting on the cloth, if enough of it did then surely the balls would pick the stuff up from the cloth and there would be no need to lube the balls by hand, ooherr missus :wink:

            Comment


            • #7
              I can't help thinking that Aramith must know about this, have the same test been performed using their own proprietary ball cleaner? If not why do they recommend it's use, and does use of their ball cleaner reduce kicks when compared to new or untreated balls

              Comment


              • #8
                I always use the aramith ball cleaner. Unfortunately the tables I play on aren't any good, so the only thing I can say is: I think I don't get too many kicks.

                Played on an Aristocrat TC and Aristocrat Steel Block (2007 Sheffield table) yesterday with a fairly new set of aramith TC's (club balls) and had lots of kicks. However I do not know how the balls are cleaned/polished at this club.
                Last edited by mooneyy; 12 February 2013, 12:36 PM. Reason: bad wording

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally Posted by Achamian View Post
                  Hi everyone,

                  My name is Marcus, and I work as a Organic Chemist for Johnson & Johnson. The people who make Johnson's Baby Powder. LOL.

                  (The reason I have explained my job is because there is some slightly 'technical talk' in this post, and I don't want people to think that I'm just some kind of nutcase who is making it all up as he goes along.)

                  I am also a confirmed supporter of 'all things snooker' and a lover of the game.

                  I mentioned in my other thread HERE that I have been testing a possible solution to the 'kicks' problem.

                  Well, basically, I'm pretty sure that I have found the answer.

                  Steve Davis explains HERE that, at the microscopic level, snooker balls are not smooth. I have actually looked at the surface of a snooker ball with a scanning election microscope. (The guy in the Physics Lab thought I was barmy. LOL). And I can tell you that, under a scanning election microscope, the surface of a snooker ball looks something like a miniature mountain range. So Steve Davis is definitely correct about snooker balls not actually being smooth at the microscopic level.

                  Later in that video, Steve Davis then goes on to explain how 'kicks' occur because of increased friction between the cue-ball and object-ball. This increased friction causes the cue-ball and object-ball to attempt to 'stick together' on impact - resulting in what we call a 'kick'.

                  We don't know what the root-cause(s) of this increased friction is. It may be chalk related, or it may be because snooker balls are made from a different compound than they used to be. It may be because some kind of residue from the cloth manufacturing process is sticking to the balls. Or we may just get more 'kicks' because the balls are lighter nowadays (and therefore tend to bounce into the air more easily) than the balls we used to use years ago. Or it may be all these various factors combined together. Or it may be something else entirely. We just don't know for certain.

                  What we do know, however, is that it is NOT completely due to static electricity. This is because the amount of static electricity necessary to make a 142 gram snooker ball jump into the air would be absolutely enormous - definitely enough to give you a nasty electric shock. (Although I do accept the possibility that enough static electricity may be generated by friction on the cloth to make excess chalk stick to the cue-ball. Maybe the Number 10 cloth they use has something in it that creates extra static electricity on the cue-ball. We can suspect many different causes, but they are just suspicions. We do not actually know the root-cause(s) that are responsible for the 'kicks' problem.)

                  So, as we cannot eliminate the root cause(s) of 'kicks' (because we don't know for certain what they actually are), the only viable solution is to lubricate the balls to lessen the chance of the cue-ball and object-ball attempting to 'stick together' on impact. (i.e. by lubricating the balls, we will reduce the friction between them.)

                  But you just cannot use any lubricant. This is because hitting a cue-ball can accelerate it to 20 mph in just a fraction of a second, and the resulting friction temperature between ball and cloth can easily reach 250°C. LINK

                  My first experiment was with a household wax polish, but it was only partly successful. Basically, the anti-friction effect did not last very long. After that first experiment, I quickly realized that household wax polishes such as Pledge/Mr sheen etc are obviously not designed to be used at high temperatures, and they can break down before reaching 250°C. And, when they do break down, they turn into a sticky residue instead of a lubricant. It goes without saying that this would not be good.

                  As an interesting side note, whilst researching various other lubricants, I found that some of the components of the oil in human skin (Sebum) can still be effective as lubricants at around 250°C. (I suspect this may be one of the reasons why older, well handled sets of snooker balls 'kick' a lot more rarely than brand new sets of snooker balls.)

                  However, because I did not have an adequate supply of Sebum on hand (LOL), I decided to try a few high-temperature industrial lubricants. And I finally found one that was perfect.

                  It is called Super Lube Teflon Lubricant, Oiler. There are two similar products. One is a grease and one is an oil. You do NOT want the grease product, you want the oil product. The item number of the oil product is 34233. You can buy it from HERE.

                  To use it, put ten drops of the product on a clean handkerchief, then scrunch up the handkerchief a few times to distribute the lubricant. (If you then leave the handkerchief overnight, the lubricant will distribute itself through the handkerchief a lot more evenly.)

                  Then, use this 'lubricant' handkerchief to polish a complete set of snooker balls. Then use another clean handkerchief to polish the balls again. (You will not wipe all the lubricant from the balls by doing this. You will just remove the excess. Some of the lubricant will stay in the microscopic pits and gullies on the surface of the snooker balls.)

                  You will find that this procedure will definitely prevent ALL 'kicks' for at least fifteen frames of snooker. Then, after fifteen frames, just repeat the lubricating procedure again. (The first time I tried this I got a slight 'kick' on a slow run-through shot after playing twenty one frames. The reason I say to re-lubricate the balls every fifteen frames is to give a reasonable safety margin.)

                  I have now used a single 'once lubricated' handkerchief to polish a BRAND NEW set of Aramith Tournament Champion SuperPro1G snooker balls eight times (after each fifteen frames) and neither myself or any of my practice partners has had one single 'kick' in one hundred and twenty frames of snooker.

                  I'm think I'm safe in counting that as a successful experiment.

                  The great thing about this Super Lube Teflon Lubricant, Oiler product is that, because Teflon is the 'slipperiest' substance known to man, You only need a tiny amount of it to achieve the desired anti-friction results. This product is great because the amount you need is so small you won't even know it's there. So you don't have to worry about getting it on the cloth, your hands, or your clothes etc.

                  The other remarkable thing I have found about this product is that, not only will it prevent ALL 'kicks' for at least fifteen frames of snooker, it will also NOT cause you to miscue more often when applying extreme side or deep screw.

                  I assumed that, because the cue-ball is lubricated, a player WOULD tend to miscue more often when applying extreme side or deep screw. But I have tested this extensively with several different practice partners, and you definitely don't miscue more often. I don't know for certain why this is, but I suspect it must be because the chalk on the cue-tip penetrates deep enough into the microscopic pits and gullies on the surface of the cue-ball to obtain sufficient grip between the cue-tip and the cue-ball.

                  Also, when using this lubricant, I should add that neither myself, or any of my practice partners, have noticed any difference in the angle of throw from the balls themselves or the angles the balls take off the cushions

                  So there you go, an amazing miracle cure!

                  But honestly, the thing I find most amazing is, why am I the first person (that I know of, anyway) to come up with a solution to this 'kicks' problem?

                  Let's face it. It's not rocket science, is it?

                  If something is sticking together that you don't want to stick together - then you lubricate it!

                  I am not particularly clever. In fact, in my work lab alone there are at least eight people who are a LOT cleverer that me.

                  So, in the whole country there are probably MILLIONS of people who are a LOT cleverer that me. And I suspect that at least a small percentage of these MILLIONS of people are snooker players.

                  Basically, what I'm trying to say here is - I'm pretty sure that I cannot be the first person to think of using a specialized lubricant to prevent 'kicks' from occurring!

                  So, I ask myself, and everyone else, why am I still watching professional snooker players get 'kicks' that can determine the course of frames and sometimes even entire matches?

                  Is there something blocking this (pretty obvious) cure for 'kicks' from being implemented in professional snooker?

                  Do the cloth or ball manufacturers not like the idea of it or something?

                  Personally, I suspect that Aramith might not like to admit the fact that you need to apply something extra (that they do not make) to their Tournament Champion SuperPro1G snooker balls to get them to work properly. (I am probably being a bit hard on Aramith here. It may not be Aramith's fault. It may be the cloth manufacturer's fault. Who knows?)

                  Or maybe it could be something more sinister? Maybe it's something like Barry Hearn thinking that unpredictable 'kicks' make snooker more interesting to the general public? So the 'powers that be' are deliberately not implementing a solution to the 'kicks' problem.

                  If anyone has any ideas, please feel free to post and let me know.
                  inconclusive whether your solution works as you need to test it over a reasonable length of time to reflect match conditions e.g. will the balls react the same over 35 frames? however, it is an excellent start and really appreciate you put the time, effort and thinking into this solution - this is one issue which requires the snooker authorities to invest in now (actually, they should have done so years ago among many other such issues) to create fairer playing conditions. you should send your results to the relevant snooker authorities so that they can do further tests to see if your solution is viable.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    then what of the cueball then?
                    even if excess is wiped off the cueball, would our chalk filled tips be affected?
                    See new updates: http://cueporn.tumblr.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I found your post fascinating. It was well put together very thought provoking and probing.
                      Just maybe your really onto something here and the snooker authorities should look into this , after all this is a multi million pound game and possibly the most technically testing sport there is, so any assistance to the players I am sure would be well appreciated.
                      I have read the replies and there are some interesting points which need addressing, that said I will give you big pat on the back for getting this far .
                      I for one look forward to playing kick free snooker...
                      On another subject have you any theories on why some player fluke more balls than others ?
                      I have a regular practice partner who consistently gets flukes every other frame , session after session , week after week , month after month...he does not particularly hit the balls over hard and plays at about the same level as me , so in theory we should get equally as much run ? ..it does not work that way and we often rib each other about it because he constantly gets flukes some of them are downright outrageous ,
                      To give you some sort of ratio I would say about 5-1 being conservative....what’s going on ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I doubt that "some player fluke more balls than others", and I think you better put this in a new thread. This thread is about curing kicks and the interesting thoughts and tests fom Achamian.
                        Achamian, I hope that it is not merely about selling something to get an extra income. As soon as I finally have cleaned my snooker balls I shall try your proposal because I have an awful lot of kicks. And certainly I have an awful lot of bad cue action too ...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Marcus,
                          I don't suppose you could scan an old super crystalate ball under that electron microscope and find out if there is a real difference between that and the modern phenolic resin balls that Aramith produce.
                          If as you say kicks are caused by surface friction it could be that the supers had a smoother surface, would be nice to find out.
                          Remember that you cannot buy super crystalate balls new anymore as their manufacture was stopped in the late eighties when Aramith bought out the company so you would have to track down an old one from somewhere.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally Posted by vmax4steve View Post
                            Hi Marcus,
                            I don't suppose you could scan an old super crystalate ball under that electron microscope and find out if there is a real difference between that and the modern phenolic resin balls that Aramith produce.
                            If as you say kicks are caused by surface friction it could be that the supers had a smoother surface, would be nice to find out.
                            Remember that you cannot buy super crystalate balls new anymore as their manufacture was stopped in the late eighties when Aramith bought out the company so you would have to track down an old one from somewhere.
                            I use Aramith TC's in one place and Super Crystalate ones in another and the TC's kick at least twice as often.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              When i use my TC's on a club table they kick but not as much as they do on a 'pro' table..

                              I found the stars at SWSA to kick summat terrible, maybe something to do with the balls/cloth combo, worth a thought....

                              Comment

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