Brushing a ball question

[misspentoldage]

This one came up when I was refereeing a local tournament game and I can't quite seem to get the right answer from a look at the rules. The player was stretching over the pack and was on a colour. He nominated pink but while he was still positioning himself to strike he touched a red with his sleeve. I called foul obviously and initially penalised four, then someone pointed out that he had nominated pink so the penalty was six. My feeling was that he had not got into position to strike and still had the opportunity to change his mind on the nomination, which was why I called for a four point penalty. The player himself said that he was addressing the pink to strike, so we agreed that six was the correct penalty. But was it, when he had not yet made the strike?

[scottley]

I would say its a 6 point penalty too because the pink was nominated, i'm not an expert but i'd be VERY surprised if that was not the case.

[DeanH]

Yep 6 points away as the pink was nominated and ball on.
The rules state a foul awards four unless value of ball on is greater than four.

[spike007]

So what if he potted the red and hadn't yet nominated a colour and touched a red whilst addressing the table, is the foul 7 ??

[DeanH]

there is that possiblity that in this situation if the referee is uncertain as to the colour the player is going for and no clear indication is given, the foul could be 7 yes.

[tommygunner1309]

If he nominated a colour before the foul was committed it is the value of the ball as a penalty - ie 6 in your case.
Section 3 10 b (iv) states
(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by:
(vi) touching a ball or ball marker in play, other than in the lawful execution of a stroke.

Although he has nominated Pink- all colours are basically in play, because he can change his mind before the takes the shot. i.e he nominates pink and gets down to play, and decides the shot is too scary - gets up and nominates green, as he is legally allowed to do.

[tommygunner1309]

So what if he potted the red and hadn't yet nominated a colour and touched a red whilst addressing the table, is the foul 7 ??

This is sect 3 10 (d) seven points if the striker:
(i) uses a ball off the table for any purpose
(ii) uses an object to measure gaps and distances
(iii)plays at reds, or a free ball, followed by a red, in successive strokes
(iv)uses any ball other than the white as a cue ball for any stroke
(v)fails to declare which ball he is on when snookered, or when requested to do so by the referee
(vi)AFTER POTTING A RED (OR FREE BALL NOMINATED AS A RED), COMMITS A FOUL BEFORE A COLOUR HAS BEEN NOMINATED

[CueInAction]

This is sect 3 10 (d) seven points if the striker:
(i) uses a ball off the table for any purpose
(ii) uses an object to measure gaps and distances
(iii)plays at reds, or a free ball, followed by a red, in successive strokes
(iv)uses any ball other than the white as a cue ball for any stroke
(v)fails to declare which ball he is on when snookered, or when requested to do so by the referee
(vi)AFTER POTTING A RED (OR FREE BALL NOMINATED AS A RED), COMMITS A FOUL BEFORE A COLOUR HAS BEEN NOMINATED

If no colour is nominated but it is obvious the player is playing one of baulk colours as they are playing down the table what is the decision then? I'd imagine it lies on the referees discretion as it would be harsh to penalise 7 points

[CueInAction]

Following on from that I'm imagining two different scenarios:

1. Player is leaning over reds playing up to the baulk end where there is only the brown. The player touches a red as he addresses the table. Is this a 4 point foul as the player could surely only be playing the brown although he did not vocally nominate his colour?

2. Similar situation but with all 3 baulk colours up the other end of the table close together, the player addresses the table and touches the red again (he's a clumsy fella you see!!) & is yet to nominate a colour. This time he 'has' to nominate so now he has fouled without nominating. According to the rules it is a 7 point foul, but surely as there are only 4 point colours in his line of sight its not so black and white.

Personally I'd see the first instance as a 4 point foul as nominating is unneccassary & the second scenario as up to the reffeeree's discretion, but would expect any rational, thinking person to again award only 4 points

[tommygunner1309]

Yes, if the yellow was the only ball in the players aiming line of sight, I think most refs would only award a four point penalty. If ever I am in doubt as to what ball a player is playing I would ask him to "declare, please".
I think the 7 point penalty only really comes into play if the striker fouls before getting down to play a shot.

[DawRef]

This really comes down to the description of a 'nominated ball':
"A nominated ball is the object ball which the striker declares, or indicates to the satisfaction of the referee, he undertakes to hit with the first impact of the cue-ball"
So by stretching over the reds, IMHO, the player was indicating to you (the referee) that he was attempting the pink, and hence a foul of 6 points.

Following on from the points raised above, as referee what would you call in the following scenario:
Only yellow and pink are in baulk and relatively close to each other. Player is stretching over the reds, and before you have time to ask which of the two colours he is attempting, he brushes a red. What penalty do you call? 4, 6, or 7?

[DeanH]

Only yellow and pink are in baulk and relatively close to each other. Player is stretching over the reds, and before you have time to ask which of the two colours he is attempting, he brushes a red. What penalty do you call? 4, 6, or 7?

My thought would be - 6

[tommygunner1309]

7 point penalty. No doubt in my mind on that

[DeanH]

rereading:
(vi)AFTER POTTING A RED (OR FREE BALL NOMINATED AS A RED), COMMITS A FOUL BEFORE A COLOUR HAS BEEN NOMINATED

I now think it would be 7

[steveflanuk]

In that case (the yellow and pink scenario) it is 7 as he has not "indicated" (nominated) a colour to the satisfaction of the referee due to the proximity of the yellow and pink - assuming that you would ask the player to nominate the colour they were attempting to hit