Rules query end of frame

[t.lavery55]

I wonder if someone can help me out with the following rules query, which occurred in a match recently.

With just pink and black remaining, player A potted the pink to go 9 points in front. He did not notice the score
and decided to play safe off the black, but went in-off it. My question is: what happens next?

Was his shot on the black null and void as he was already more than 7 points ahead when he played it and so had the frame won? The rules seem to suggest that the frame only ends by potting the pink if it is CLAIMED BY THE STRIKER when he is more than 7 points in front, (Section 2 Rule 1(b)), but this didn't happen here, as he didn't notice the score.

Does player A lose the frame because he committed a foul on the black? The rules state that, unless the scores are then tied the first score or foul on the black ends the frame, (Section 3 Rule 4(a)), but applying this would mean that player B, despite still being 2 points behind, wins the frame, which doesn't seem right, so I am not entirely sure what should be done in this scenario.

Any help resolving this would be greatly appreciated.

Source: http://www.worldsnooker.com/page/RulesofSnooker

[mythman69]

It ends the frame and player A wins by 2 points. The foul on the black does not mean he losses the game, only that player B gets 7 points and the frame ends.

If player A was only 7 points in front and went in-off (or missed hitting the black), then the scores would be tied and a re-spotted black would be needed. 1st foul on a re-spotted black would be end of game.

[DeanH]

What happens next:
Player B gets seven points for the Foul.
Player A wins (as still being 2 points ahead)
Frame over.

As per Sec3, Rule 4(a) ...the first score or foul ends the frame.... How many times have you seen a pro whack the last black and it has come off the table
His shot is not "null and void" as the foul will still count, i.e. the penalty points are awarded to Player B.

Does player A lose the frame because he committed a foul on the black? no, Player A has more points scored, so wins by 2 points.

The rules state that, unless the scores are then tied the first score or foul on the black ends the frame, (Section 3 Rule 4(a)), but applying this would mean that player B, despite still being 2 points behind, wins the frame, which doesn't seem right, so I am not entirely sure what should be done in this scenario. sorry but how does applying the rule mean that Player B wins? The first score or foul ends the frame it does not dictate the winner, the points scored does that.

[t.lavery55]

Ok, thanks for the responses, that has helped to clear things up.

[horriefic]

Just to clarify further, is the black ball always respotted if a foul on the black ties the points? Scenario is player A is 7 points ahead, player A in-offs without potting the black, so the points are now tied. Black ball is still on the table and over a pocket. Is the black respotted, toin coss and cue ball played within D?

I would presume the black ball is respotted because above mythman69 stated '(or missed hitting the black)' implying that the black ball is still respotted if it is still on the table (due to a foul of completely missing the black with the cue ball). But would like to clarify.

Thanks.

[jrc750]

Yes if the foul results in a tied frame, the black is respotted

[DeanH]

yes, with equal scores at the end of a frame, the Black is always respotted, toss of coin for choice to break or not.
This is whether the Black was potted, or not at the end of the frame.

[jrc750]

Going off topic (but still about rules ), i was playing last night, got the rest out for a shot, but in the end decided to stretch a little instead, left the rest on the table tho, potted the red and player calls "foul" for leaving the rest on the table lol, as long as no ball hit the rest, that is ok isn't it ???

[DeanH]

Going off topic (but still about rules ), i was playing last night, got the rest out for a shot, but in the end decided to stretch a little instead, left the rest on the table tho, potted the red and player calls "foul" for leaving the rest on the table lol, as long as no ball hit the rest, that is ok isn't it ???

It is ok, No Foul, as long as it is not hit by any ball on the table.

[jrc750]

Yeah thought so, luckily i was adamant i was right so ignored his pleas and carried on for a nice 43 break and won the frame

[DeanH]

it is like Matthew Stephens leaving his butt on the table when he puts that battered old long butt on. Being on the table is not a Foul but the Striker would be libel for any penalties if it is hit or hits any ball on the table.

[horriefic]

Thanks for the answer DeanH.

[tommygunner1309]

Just to clarify further, is the black ball always respotted if a foul on the black ties the points? Scenario is player A is 7 points ahead, player A in-offs without potting the black, so the points are now tied. Black ball is still on the table and over a pocket. Is the black respotted, toin coss and cue ball played within D?


Thanks.

As Dean H pointed out above 'when only black remains - the first score or foul [I]ends the frame.[I]
With points level the black is respotted. I have seen players playing on - but that is why this rule came into the book, because otherwise you could technically carry on playing forever!!!

[DeanH]

I remember seeing two old guys on a table next to me and I noticed that the scores were 6 point apart with only Black on the table, then one guy fouled (in off), so the other chap was now 1 point ahead but he said "oh the black is still on the table, you need to pot that to win" - I turned round and got back to my game

[t.lavery55]

Going off topic (but still about rules ), i was playing last night, got the rest out for a shot, but in the end decided to stretch a little instead, left the rest on the table tho, potted the red and player calls "foul" for leaving the rest on the table lol, as long as no ball hit the rest, that is ok isn't it ???

You have to be careful about doing things like this, as if a ball touches the rest it will be a foul, and it is quite surprising where the balls can end up sometimes. There was an incident a long time ago where John Pulman left his cue extension on the table while he played a red. He hit it harder than intended and the red rebounded off the pocket jaw and headed straight for the extension. To make matters worse, he was bridging over the pack of reds at the time, so was hardly in the best place to move it. Despite this, he did manage to get his extension out of the way in time. The only problem was he moved virtually all the other balls on the table in the process!