Rules Help Please !

[Daniel401965]

Hi, had a dilemma pop up recently, did not know the rules for it if anybody can help please !
Player 1 was potting a black, but the black wobbled in the jaws of the pocket, teetering on the edge. Player 1 walked away from the table, while player 2 was walking to the table to take his shot. Just as player 2 got to the table, without touching the table or addressing the cue ball, the black dropped in ! - What happens ! - does player 1 come back to the table and continue his break ? - is there a set time limit that the ball has to drop in the pocket, bit like golf.
Any help would be appreciated please.Many thanks. Daniel

[DeanH]

this is covered in the rules:

sec 3 Rule 9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
When a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and:
(a) Being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points previously scored shall count.
(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules (including cases where an infringement would have occurred but for the ball falling into a pocket), all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker;
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed in Section 3 Rule 10, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.
(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

so in your scenario - I would say the ball is replaced and player 2 continues, no foul.
There is no time issue in this rule, is (as usual) under the interpretation of the referee. If it is determined that the ball had come to a complete stop, then replacement would happen.

[Daniel401965]

Thats great, thanks Dean !

[tommygunner1309]

Just to add to what DeanH has said (quite correctly) the SRA publish the rules manual with explanatory notes opposite the rule and in this case the explanation for referees is as such.

"3.9 - For many people in snooker, this is known as the 'vibration rule' insofar as 'vibration' of some sort is virtually the only action, other than physical contact, that can make a stationary ball move. The proximity of a venue to a railway line, trunk road or airport can often have a bearing.

Most people take an interest in snooker because of its foundation on total integrity and the Rules seek, where possible, to preserve this spirit. Whilst no compensatory measure could be devised to overcome 'fluke' pots and poor contact (kicks), it IS possible to counter vibration by, effectively, voiding the shot and starting again as detailed in this section."

When I took my exam for ref, part of the course covered this type of incident. The examiner explained that once the player had left the table, his turn was deemed to be ended, and the incoming player moving into the table had not yet taken a shot, therefore, the "Being no part of any stroke in progress" part of the rule also comes into play. He said that it was deemed to be the fairest solution to both players, to replace the ball on the edge of the pocket. Timewise, there is no set limit, but he said that any sensible player would wait at the table for a couple of seconds to see if the ball would actually drop. Others would just return to their seat almost immediately - then issued the statement that fills all refs (new ones, that is) with dread - "ultimately it is the referees decision" and added "Just keep in mind that the decision should always be made in the interests of fair play to all sides"

It hasn't happened to me yet, but I am sure that in the future I will be faced with this little tickler.

[DandyA]

Just to add to what DeanH has said (quite correctly) the SRA publish the rules manual with explanatory notes opposite the rule and in this case the explanation for referees is as such.

"3.9 - For many people in snooker, this is known as the 'vibration rule' insofar as 'vibration' of some sort is virtually the only action, other than physical contact, that can make a stationary ball move. The proximity of a venue to a railway line, trunk road or airport can often have a bearing.

Most people take an interest in snooker because of its foundation on total integrity and the Rules seek, where possible, to preserve this spirit. Whilst no compensatory measure could be devised to overcome 'fluke' pots and poor contact (kicks), it IS possible to counter vibration by, effectively, voiding the shot and starting again as detailed in this section."

When I took my exam for ref, part of the course covered this type of incident. The examiner explained that once the player had left the table, his turn was deemed to be ended, and the incoming player moving into the table had not yet taken a shot, therefore, the "Being no part of any stroke in progress" part of the rule also comes into play. He said that it was deemed to be the fairest solution to both players, to replace the ball on the edge of the pocket. Timewise, there is no set limit, but he said that any sensible player would wait at the table for a couple of seconds to see if the ball would actually drop. Others would just return to their seat almost immediately - then issued the statement that fills all refs (new ones, that is) with dread - "ultimately it is the referees decision" and added "Just keep in mind that the decision should always be made in the interests of fair play to all sides"

It hasn't happened to me yet, but I am sure that in the future I will be faced with this little tickler.

very interesting reply tommy, I enjoyed reading it ... without wishing to fill with you with further trepidation, I was wondering what you'd do if you were the ref in the following circumstances ...

(a) there is a small earthquake (natural or man-made) that causes all the balls on the table to move a little ...

or (b) it starts raining on a portion of the table due to a leak in the roof - which I believe did happen once in a professional tournament ...

[tommygunner1309]

Hi DandyA - Yes that's an interesting one. (b) is simple - I would suspend the match. Quite clearly in that situation, the match cannot be played in the spirit of the game, and comes down to pot luck, and the effect it would have on the table and balls would be disastrous.
(a) is a little more interesting. I would ask the players to wait for a moment while I replaced whatever balls I could. Then I would consult with both players about any other balls requiring moving, finally asking them if they were happy to continue. For me, a referee is only there to apply the rules and see that the match is played in the spirit of fair mindedness. The players are the important people there, and as long as they are happy that all is fair and they wish to continue the match, then I would have deemed to have done my job.

[SnkrRef]

In a similar vein I once witnessed an incident at the Norbreck during the qualifiers back in the mid 90s... one of the light bulbs exploded with glass all over the table. After consultation with she who must be obeyed (Ann Yates, TD) they agreed to continue on another table. Thankfully the interrupted frame was nearing the end with just a couple of reds left if I recall correctly. The referee recorded measurements so that the balls could be replaced in virtually the correct position on the new table.

[mythman69]

What would happen if a player ripped the table with his/her cue? Game over? Loss of match and a large bill?

Anyone ever seen it happen?

[DawRef]

I would suspect that play would be suspended and, with agreement of both players, play continuing, if possible, on another table. If it was your local league match with only one table, I would suggest that the frame (and possibly match) is abandoned, with equal share of points, or the match re-arranged once the table had been repaired.

[SnkrRef]

I would suspect that play would be suspended and, with agreement of both players, play continuing, if possible, on another table. If it was your local league match with only one table, I would suggest that the frame (and possibly match) is abandoned, with equal share of points, or the match re-arranged once the table had been repaired.

The only sensible options.

[t.lavery55]

What would be the best procedure for the referee to follow, if, just as a player played a shot, the ball split in half, and the 2 parts rolled into different positions? I believe this did happen in a tournament once, where one half ended up in a pocket and the other half stayed out!

[jrc750]

Lol seriously ?????????

[SnkrRef]

I'll make my mind up when it happens!

[t.lavery55]

My favoured approach would be to get a new ball to replace the the one that had
split, reposition the balls where they were before the stroke was played and have
the striker play the stroke again (or a different stroke, at his discretion).
Does this sound reasonable?

Another possibility would be for the referee to make a judgment as to where the
ball would have finished, had it not split, and place the new ball there, but as this would likely be completely
different from where it actually finished, this would be a very difficult decision,
so I think the first option is best.

I certainly wouldn't award the striker three and a half points for potting half the ball!

[The Statman]

Just to add to what DeanH has said (quite correctly) the SRA publish the rules manual with explanatory notes opposite the rule and in this case the explanation for referees is as such.

"3.9 - For many people in snooker, this is known as the 'vibration rule' insofar as 'vibration' of some sort is virtually the only action, other than physical contact, that can make a stationary ball move. The proximity of a venue to a railway line, trunk road or airport can often have a bearing.

Most people take an interest in snooker because of its foundation on total integrity and the Rules seek, where possible, to preserve this spirit. Whilst no compensatory measure could be devised to overcome 'fluke' pots and poor contact (kicks), it IS possible to counter vibration by, effectively, voiding the shot and starting again as detailed in this section."

When I took my exam for ref, part of the course covered this type of incident. The examiner explained that once the player had left the table, his turn was deemed to be ended, and the incoming player moving into the table had not yet taken a shot, therefore, the "Being no part of any stroke in progress" part of the rule also comes into play. He said that it was deemed to be the fairest solution to both players, to replace the ball on the edge of the pocket. Timewise, there is no set limit, but he said that any sensible player would wait at the table for a couple of seconds to see if the ball would actually drop. Others would just return to their seat almost immediately - then issued the statement that fills all refs (new ones, that is) with dread - "ultimately it is the referees decision" and added "Just keep in mind that the decision should always be made in the interests of fair play to all sides"

It hasn't happened to me yet, but I am sure that in the future I will be faced with this little tickler.

It has happened to me once, but it was the case that several shots had gone by after the ball landed there, before it then dropped.

And I think that is the reason why the 'voiding the shot' cannot really work - it's fine if no further shot has been played but not so clever if 10 minutes have gone by!

The referee's discretion is called for and that is why he is a referee - to make those decisions. Sometimes you can somehow just tell that a ball, although it appears to have just stopped, is not quite finished and will drop in; other times you just have to go on your own judgement - 3 seconds is considered a useful guideline without having any status as a proper measure.