Red or Colour?

[Billy]

If a player gets interrupted during a break and then forgets if they're on a red or a colour, are they allowed to ask the ref?

[DeanH]

Red or Colour?

The player can ask
but I think the referee is not allowed to say what ball they are on.
If there is an electronic scoreboard there is usually a display of the balls potted
The ref can confirm the scores and break and also if a player is colour blind can confirm that a certain ball is a certain colour.

[Billy]

Thanks, Dean. It's not because I play or anything, I was simply curious.

[SnkrRef]

Hmmm, interesting one. I'm not sure I'd answer the question 'am I on a red or a colour?' but would feel easier answering 'did I pot a red last ball?'. I certainly don't see any problem, as a referee, answering a query as to how the current break has been comprised (or at least the last few additions). After all, with electronic scoreboards you can scroll back through each addition, and if a match had a recorder all shots would be there to see.

In a way, I think pool World Rules are more sensible with their past/present/future distinction with regard to which questions can be answered:

Y Referees Guidelines

1. Information to be disclosed/not disclosed by a referee:-

(a) A player is responsible for knowing the rules of the game. It is not the referee's duty to explain or quote the rules to a player.
(b) A referee, if asked by a player, may divulge certain information pertaining to the frame in question under the guidelines of the 'Past Present and Future Rule'. A referee may divulge information relating to any past event or present situation in the frame. For example:-
(i) "Who's turn is it?" - Present
(ii) "Was that a foul?" - Past
(iii)"Which colour am I on?" - Present
However, "If I play this shot will it be a foul?" is a question regarding the future, and the referee should advise the player that the Referee cannot answer this type of question.

[Billy]

Thanks, SnkrRef, interesting reading that. So it would depend on how the player phrased the question?

[SnkrRef]

Thanks, SnkrRef, interesting reading that. So it would depend on how the player phrased the question?

The more I think about it, the more I'd be inclined to answer (regardless of the question) "the last ball you potted was xxxxx" and let them make their own mind up as to what ball they're on.

The OP doesn't indicate how long the interruption was, but if it was quite a lengthy period I think the referee could use S5 'in the interest of fair play' to respond. I can remember being a spectator at The Norbreck back in the early 90s, when all 22 tables were pulled off when the fire alarm sounded. We were all out of the venue for quite a few minutes and I'd have thought it perfectly reasonable to have prompted the player as to what his last action was, at the very least.

[Billy]

The OP doesn't indicate how long the interruption was, but if it was quite a lengthy period I think the referee could use S5 'in the interest of fair play' to respond.

As I've said, this didn't happen. It was a purely theoretical question based on the fact that me and my brother are both getting to that age (him more than me) where we forget if we're on a red or a colour when playing WSC Real 09 on the PS3. Mind you, this forgetfulness comes immediately after potting a ball, so I imagine the ref would give us a rather bemused look in the real world.

[t.lavery55]

So is Section 5 rule 1 b (i) "The referee shall not answer any question not authorised in these rules" not to taken literally then?

[SnkrRef]

So is Section 5 rule 1 b (i) "The referee shall not answer any question not authorised in these rules" not to taken literally then?

If you look at what the rules specifically authorise a referee to answer, the list is actually very short! Adhering rigidly to that would preclude a referee from answering many questions which are taken for granted. I think common sense needs to be applied.

The pool philosophy doesn't work quite so well in snooker/billiards. Off the top of my head I can't think of any problems with answering questions about past events (was that a foul, etc), and anything to do with future shots would be prohibited (eg will it be a foul if I ...., can I do this, what are my options etc). The problem comes in dealing with the present situation like 'am I in hand', do I have central full ball contact?' etc which should not be answered, whereas 'what is my break?', 'do I have a free ball?' 'are those balls touching?' etc can/should be answered.

Dan Lewis, the erstwhile Director for Referees in EASB was, I believe, going to produce a list of questions which can and can't be answered but I'm not sure it ever got done. It would be very useful!

[t.lavery55]

If you look at what the rules specifically authorise a referee to answer, the list is actually very short! Adhering rigidly to that would preclude a referee from answering many questions which are taken for granted. I think common sense needs to be applied.

The pool philosophy doesn't work quite so well in snooker/billiards. Off the top of my head I can't think of any problems with answering questions about past events (was that a foul, etc), and anything to do with future shots would be prohibited (eg will it be a foul if I ...., can I do this, what are my options etc). The problem comes in dealing with the present situation like 'am I in hand', do I have central full ball contact?' etc which should not be answered, whereas 'what is my break?', 'do I have a free ball?' 'are those balls touching?' etc can/should be answered.

Dan Lewis, the erstwhile Director for Referees in EASB was, I believe, going to produce a list of questions which can and can't be answered but I'm not sure it ever got done. It would be very useful!

Useful indeed! One of the tasks that I find hardest when refereeing, is trying to decide whether I am allowed to answer particular questions that the players ask me.
It does seem to call into question what the purpose of the above rule actually is though, as I would have thought that s5 rule b (iii) "The referee shall not give any advice or opinion on points affecting play" would seem to cover the situations where the referee may not answer the players questions (albeit not without ambiguity!)

One exception that springs to mind regarding the questions about the past would be when a 'foul and a miss' has been called, the incoming player, while deciding whether he wants the balls replaced, may NOT be told by the referee where they were before the shot was played (although he is permitted to know which balls the referee intends to replace, and so presumably, may also be informed which balls moved).

Another interesting scenario would be in a doubles match, with players A and C playing B and D, with the playing order A, B, C, D. After D's go, C comes to the table to play, but is unsure whether it is his turn. The referee would not (I think) be allowed to tell him whether it was his turn, but two past tense questions: 1)"Who played last?" and 2)"What was the playing order established at the start of this frame?" would seem to get around this problem, if this is allowed.

A question such as "Is the Pink on its spot?" would seem to be providing unfair assistance to the striker if it is answered, but on the other hand, if the striker instead asks for the Pink to be cleaned, he will likely find out the answer (as referees almost never use a ball marker to clean colours placed on their spots).

How about if the striker, with the cue-ball surrounded by Reds with no path to a colour, where a choice of colour is the ball on, asks the referee if he is satisfied that the snooker is impossible? (so he knows whether or not he needs to directly hit a ball on).

Then there's the question of whether the striker may be informed what the highest break of the tournament is (as it may influence his shot selection), when it is conceivable that his opponent can still win the frame.

Finally, there's the question of what the player may be told when unusual scenarios crop up, e.g. the striker pots last Red, then yellow, the referee forgets to re-spot the Yellow, the striker then clears Green to Blue, when the referee's error is realised, and the Yellow is re-spotted. If the striker in this situation asks "which ball am I on, Yellow or Pink"?, and the referee responds, in accordance with your above suggestion, "the last ball you potted was the Blue", then this would not help! I would think that in this scenario, it would be acceptable for the referee to tell the striker that he is on the Yellow, as it seems unreasonable to expect the players to know what to do in situations not explicitly covered by the rules (it's hard enough for referees to know!), but I am not 100% sure of this.

I would greatly appreciate it if you (or anyone else) could provide some thoughts on these matters as it would help make my job as a referee considerably easier!

[SnkrRef]

Useful indeed! One of the tasks that I find hardest when refereeing, is trying to decide whether I am allowed to answer particular questions that the players ask me.
It does seem to call into question what the purpose of the above rule actually is though, as I would have thought that s5 rule b (iii) "The referee shall not give any advice or opinion on points affecting play" would seem to cover the situations where the referee may not answer the players questions (albeit not without ambiguity!)

One exception that springs to mind regarding the questions about the past would be when a 'foul and a miss' has been called, the incoming player, while deciding whether he wants the balls replaced, may NOT be told by the referee where they were before the shot was played (although he is permitted to know which balls the referee intends to replace, and so presumably, may also be informed which balls moved).

Another interesting scenario would be in a doubles match, with players A and C playing B and D, with the playing order A, B, C, D. After D's go, C comes to the table to play, but is unsure whether it is his turn. The referee would not (I think) be allowed to tell him whether it was his turn, but two past tense questions: 1)"Who played last?" and 2)"What was the playing order established at the start of this frame?" would seem to get around this problem, if this is allowed.

A question such as "Is the Pink on its spot?" would seem to be providing unfair assistance to the striker if it is answered, but on the other hand, if the striker instead asks for the Pink to be cleaned, he will likely find out the answer (as referees almost never use a ball marker to clean colours placed on their spots).

How about if the striker, with the cue-ball surrounded by Reds with no path to a colour, where a choice of colour is the ball on, asks the referee if he is satisfied that the snooker is impossible? (so he knows whether or not he needs to directly hit a ball on).

Then there's the question of whether the striker may be informed what the highest break of the tournament is (as it may influence his shot selection), when it is conceivable that his opponent can still win the frame.

Finally, there's the question of what the player may be told when unusual scenarios crop up, e.g. the striker pots last Red, then yellow, the referee forgets to re-spot the Yellow, the striker then clears Green to Blue, when the referee's error is realised, and the Yellow is re-spotted. If the striker in this situation asks "which ball am I on, Yellow or Pink"?, and the referee responds, in accordance with your above suggestion, "the last ball you potted was the Blue", then this would not help! I would think that in this scenario, it would be acceptable for the referee to tell the striker that he is on the Yellow, as it seems unreasonable to expect the players to know what to do in situations not explicitly covered by the rules (it's hard enough for referees to know!), but I am not 100% sure of this.

I would greatly appreciate it if you (or anyone else) could provide some thoughts on these matters as it would help make my job as a referee considerably easier!

Hmm, a lot of interesting points in that post! I think this will make an excellent topic for the European tutors and examiner seminar, which I expect will be held in February. Hopefully Dan, or someone else, will produce a more comprehensive list of what can and can't be answered.

I agree that the referee would not advise where the balls were prior to the miss being called.

No, the referee is not allowed to state which player plays next in a doubles match, but I would answer as to who played last... although if the previous player played out of turn that might not be of much use! Again the referee should record the order of play at the start of each frame, most probably on the match sheet, which I can't see a reason for preventing the players from seeing, so is there any problem in stating the original order of play?

With regard to colours being on their spot, the referee should not answer, and, by and large, unless he is absolutely certain that a ball has not made contact with the colour, then he should always use a ball marker. It is quite possible for a ball to have brushed past a colour and moved it off its spot a fraction, or for some vibration to have moved it, so it would eb the cautious approach to use a marker.

With your final scenario, I don't think the referee should ever tell a player what ball is on.

It seems that there is quite a difference between snooker and billiards. In the latter, the rules expressly permit the referee to answer the following questions:

- the number of consecutive hazards during a break
- the number of consecutive cannons during a break
- the number of times the red has been potted off the spot
- whether the cue ball is correctly placed in baulk when in hand (as in snooker)
- whether a ball is in baulk or not
- whether the two object ball are touching

As for the highest break of the tournament, I think we've seen that question being asked and answered in pro matches.