Foul on Purpose

[char]

Hi,

I was about 40 points in front last night with 2 reds left on the table.

One was tight against the cushion and with not much chance of getting from red to black.

The other one was next to the pocket with the pink ball allowing a perfect plant. (e.g. hit pink and red goes straight in).

I was keen to get on with the next game and was 90% sure my opposing player had no chance of catching me.

Can I on purpose hit the pink and pot the red. obviously I give a 6 point foul but is my shot illegal causing me to forfeit the frame?.

We had a little chat about it and decided it was probably not allowed due to "Not playing in the spirit of fair play". A rule we made up on the spot

cheers,

Char

[Odrl]

I assume you are on a colour?

Because if you are on a red a miss should be called, and you would be facing the same shot, with your opponent six points closer to you. :smile:

[char]

No, I was on a red.

If the red is pocketed and a miss is called. Do they get a free ball?

I assumed that a red cannot be put back onto the table once it has been pocketed or bounces off the table onto the floor. OR does calling the miss put the red back onto the table. Which would make sense.

I thought the miss rule only applied to matches/professional game.

We are both 20 break players at best. So I was assuming I'd have at least a couple more shots to finish the frame off.

[coomsey76]

Yes that's definitely not playing the game in the true spirit.... As you've already discussed.

Yep a 6 point foul would be called, and if snookered on the last remaining red a free ball would be called. So as Odrl said your opponent would be 6 points closer and well within reach of winning the frame even without the free ball......

I think a ref would probably worn you for ungentlemanly conduct, but you wouldn't forfeit the frame.....

I'm sure a ref will be along shortly....

[DeanH]

it is in the rules that if a player is willfully playing unfair or amounts to ungentlemanly conduct, the referee can award the frame to the oppontent.
If your shot on the Pink was so considered then, you could loss the frame.
Section 4
1. Conduct
(a) In the event of:
(i) a Player taking an abnormal amount of time over a stroke or the selection of a stroke; or
(ii) any conduct by a Player which in the opinion of the referee is wilfully or persistently unfair; or
(iii) any other conduct by a Player which otherwise amounts to ungentlemanly conduct; or
(iv) refusing to continue a frame;
the referee shall either:
(v) warn the Player that in the event of any such further conduct the frame will be awarded to his opponent; or
(vi) award the frame to his opponent; or
(vii) in the event that the conduct is sufficiently serious, award the game to his opponent.
(b) If a referee has warned the Player under (v) above, in the event of any further conduct as referred to above, the referee must either:
(i) award the frame to his opponent; or
(ii) in the event that the further conduct is sufficiently serious, award the game to his opponent.
(c) If a referee has awarded a frame to a Player’s opponent pursuant to the above provisions, in the event of any further conduct as referred to above by the Player concerned, the referee must award the game to the Player’s opponent.
(d) Any decision by a referee to award a frame and/or the game to a Player’s opponent shall be final and shall not be subject to any appeal.

[SnkrRef]

it is in the rules that if a player is willfully playing unfair or amounts to ungentlemanly conduct, the referee can award the frame to the oppontent.
If your shot on the Pink was so considered then, you could loss the frame.

It is normal practice to give a warning though, before awarding a frame.

However, when you're only playing one or two frames in a league match, then maybe a harsher treatment should be adopted. Also, should the warning apply to just the player or to the whole team? If a player is in a round-robin event, should any warning carry over to other matches in that event? I'd be interested to hear any views on this.

[SnkrRef]

No, I was on a red.

If the red is pocketed and a miss is called. Do they get a free ball?

I assumed that a red cannot be put back onto the table once it has been pocketed or bounces off the table onto the floor. OR does calling the miss put the red back onto the table. Which would make sense.

I thought the miss rule only applied to matches/professional game.

We are both 20 break players at best. So I was assuming I'd have at least a couple more shots to finish the frame off.

If you're on a red and you deliberately play the pink in order to sink the red, then the referee would without doubt call a foul and a miss and warn you for ungentlemanly conduct. A free ball will only be awarded if the non-offender is snookered on the final red on the cushion.

If the non-offender takes the Miss and asks for balls to be replaced, then that is exactly what will happen - all balls, including the red, will be put back to their original position, and you face the same shot but with six fewer points between you and your opponent. The whole purpose of the miss rule is to put the offender back into exactly the same position with the same choices as he had before he played his first shot.

The Miss rule is in the official rules of the game, drafted by WPBSA but adopted by the IBSF, and therefore applicable to all who play the game whether amateur or professional... unless a league or competition organiser has specifically excluded certain rules. The professionals are rather more strict in their application of the rule when a player is trying to get out of a snooker: after all, the referee should have regard for the difficulty of the snooker and the ability of the player when deciding whether or not to call a miss.

If I was refereeing a match wheer the Miss rule had been specifically excluded, and a player did what you said in the OP, then I would warn the player for ungentlemanly conduct and invoke S5 and replace all balls in the interest of fair play.

[char]

Ok.

It looks like the Miss rule would come into play if I played the pink onto the red.

Anyone else play Miss rules in games between friends?. I think we will stick to our current rule that every shot needs to be played to best of your ability as possible. (MISS is never called in our games)

thanks for your feedback

[Odrl]

I assumed that a red cannot be put back onto the table once it has been pocketed or bounces off the table onto the floor. OR does calling the miss put the red back onto the table. Which would make sense.

Yeah, if the balls are replaced then any pocketed red would go back on the table, so if you are playing the miss rule you can't really get away with that shot.

But there is a way you could benefit from a foul, for example, if you smash into the red on the cushion and knock it off the table. Obviously the miss can't be called because you've hit it, so you give four points away, but you've taken eight off the table at the same time. I don't think many people would consider that a fair shot to play though. :smile:

[SnkrRef]

Another option would be to try and get the cannon from the first red on cushion, so that it knocks the pink onto the red over the pocket to pocket it.

[DeanH]

It is normal practice to give a warning though, before awarding a frame.

However, when you're only playing one or two frames in a league match, then maybe a harsher treatment should be adopted. Also, should the warning apply to just the player or to the whole team? If a player is in a round-robin event, should any warning carry over to other matches in that event? I'd be interested to hear any views on this.

I did say "could" loss the frame.
But yes I agree with you that a Foul&Miss and a Warning is given and, in this scenario, also replace all balls and same player tries again.
With a team, then I think it would apply to the single player initially, they loss their frame; then if the misconduct continues in that game, they could loss their game. This could greatly affect a team's results.
Now if the same player continues with the misconduct in other games, and multiple warnings an losses have been given then mayeb that player is removed from the event, ?
Interesting, points...
If the same player continues to repeat the same miscondutct, maybe the player has a misunderstadning of the rules and good conduct of snooker/ But it is not up to the referee to "teach" players the rules during a match, but maybe a word with the team captain/members to "have a quiet word" with the offending player.

[char]

Any refs ever had to repeatedly tell a player to change the way they play the game?

I wonder how often (is it even possible?) a player can gain an advantage by launching the cue ball off the table.

[SnkrRef]

Any refs ever had to repeatedly tell a player to change the way they play the game?

I wonder how often (is it even possible?) a player can gain an advantage by launching the cue ball off the table.

Imagine you come to the table 14 points behind, with only the pink and black left. It's the deciding frame of the match. Unfortunately the pink is balancing right on the very edge of a corner pocket, and the cue ball is at the other end of the table. The only way you can try to stay in the match is to commit a foul: either by pocketing the pink and following through with the cue ball, or by hitting it so hard to pink is pocketed and the cue ball is forced off the table. Not an advantage as such, but certainly a beneficial tactic.

I'm sure last season I saw a pro follow through on the pink, and I know I've done it myself before.

[SnkrRef]

Thankfully I've never had to warn a player for ungentlemanly conduct as such but all too frequently have to have words about cues being swung around in the air, cues being banged hard on the floor or tables being hit hard with the fist.

One somewhat controversial incident maybe 14 or 15 years ago, was when I warned a player for playing on when an unreasonable number of snookers was required (IMHO). To my mind he was playing on as a tactic rather than in any hope of actually gaining the required penalty points to be able to win. I was told by my peers that I ought not to have done that.

[tedisbill]

Foul, and a miss.