Is this a foul?

[ormy28]

Hi,
This question has probably been asked before but I can't find it.
Tonight, my friend was attempting to pot an easy red into the top corner pocket. Trying to get position further down the table, he blasted the red hard. The red then wobbled in the jaws of the pocket, jumped off the table and rolled along the top of the baulk cushion. Amazingly, the red rolled straight into the pocket at the opposite end of the table. Is this a foul or a legitimate pot?

I don't know whether you would class the red as having actually left the table or not?...

I would be interested to hear peoples opinions. Thanks.

[Robert602]

I'm almost certain that's a legitimate pot because I've seen it in professional play (a memorable Alan McManus one is on youtube somewhere).

I think what's important is that the ball comes to rest in a pocket, and the rules state that as long as the ball comes to rest either on the bed or in a pocket then it isn't deemed to have been forced off the table.

Not sure what the ruling would be if, say, the ball hits a wall and comes back. Is that the same situation or is the path deemed to have been 'disturbed' by the wall.

[Semih_Sayginer]

I'm almost certain that's a legitimate pot

so am i....

[rambon]

I'm 100% certain.

It's happened a few times on tv in Professional Snooker. The ball has to "totally leave the table" to be classed as a foul, which means it would either have to touch the floor or part of the player or his equipment to be classed as a foul

[RaNeN]

Its a pot! Its a foul, only if the ball goes off the table.

[davis_greatest]

...

I think what's important is that the ball comes to rest in a pocket, and the rules state that as long as the ball comes to rest either on the bed or in a pocket then it isn't deemed to have been forced off the table.

Not sure what the ruling would be if, say, the ball hits a wall and comes back. Is that the same situation or is the path deemed to have been 'disturbed' by the wall.

Nothing wrong with the ball hitting the wall, the lampshade, or the nose of a passing moose, as long as it comes to rest on the bed of the table or in the pocket.
Rule 14 (bold added by me):

"A ball is forced off the table if it comes to rest other than on the bed of the table or in a pocket, or if it is picked up by the striker, whilst it is in play except as provided for in Section 3 Rule 14(h)."

[MrRottweiler]

the nose of a passing moose,

Is that assuming you're playing in an open air Snooker club in Aspen?

[Robert602]

Indeed, but there's also Section 3, rule 15:

"If a ball, stationary or moving, is disturbed other than by the striker, it shall be re-positioned by the referee to the place he judges the ball was, or would have finished, without penalty."

Wouldn't a passing moose be a disturbance?

[ADR147]

Indeed, but there's also Section 3, rule 15:

"If a ball, stationary or moving, is disturbed other than by the striker, it shall be re-positioned by the referee to the place he judges the ball was, or would have finished, without penalty."

Wouldn't a passing moose be a disturbance?

yes i think if thats not a disturbance what is !!!

it is legal providing the ball finishes in the pocket or on the bed.

[The Statman]

With regard to hitting the wall (or lampshade or whatever) I would class that as a ball being moved by other than the striker and, as the referee, would have to put it where it would have landed – which in this case would be on the floor, so that would be a foul.

[davis_greatest]

With regard to hitting the wall (or lampshade or whatever) I would class that as a ball being moved by other than the striker and, as the referee, would have to put it where it would have landed – which in this case would be on the floor, so that would be a foul.

I suppose the rules could perhaps be made clearer on what is meant by "disturbed". The referee, of course, must interpret as he thinks appropriate. Personally, I would not have regarded the building or permanent fixtures / fittings (including wall / lampshade) as something which disturb the balls. (The passing moose might be another story - or if a lamp fell onto the table, that would clearly also be a disturbance.)

Incidentally, I think that one of the first snooker books I ever read suggested that if a ball struck the lampshade and landed back on the bed of the table, that was legitimate, but I'm afraid I do not recall which book it was! Also, it was not an official rulebook!

[The Statman]

I suppose the rules could perhaps be made clearer on what is meant by "disturbed". The referee, of course, must interpret as he thinks appropriate. Personally, I would not have regarded the building or permanent fixtures / fittings (including wall / lampshade) as something which disturb the balls. (The passing moose might be another story - or if a lamp fell onto the table, that would clearly also be a disturbance.)

Incidentally, I think that one of the first snooker books I ever read suggested that if a ball struck the lampshade and landed back on the bed of the table, that was legitimate, but I'm afraid I do not recall which book it was! Also, it was not an official rulebook!

Indeed, it is open to interpretation.

I would class it as inconsistent that a ball could come off the table, hit a wall and rebound (one scenarion that springs [pardon the pun] to mind is that it is in some sports club where they have mini-trampolines stored against the wall alongside the table!), whereas if it happened to be on a different table – say, not against the wall – or even on the other side of the same table, it could not have happened. That is why I would call it foul.

[Semih_Sayginer]

following that then (statman), would you say that part [and others] of the rules could be more specific (without getting too carried away) by being tweaked?

[ormy28]

Thanks for all the help, I think the general feeling is it wasn't a foul, as I believed at the time. I was sitting out the game when my two friends were playing, but saw it all happen. The player who took the shot and myself felt it was a legitimate shot, but his opponent was absolutley convinced he was having four points for it. Will have to correct him next time I see him.

Funny as hell when it happened!

[DawRef]

Is this a foul?

It is a legitimate stroke (see Section 2 rule 14).

John Street quotes in his book (page 36):

... A ball can leave the bed of the table and run along a cushion rail and if it stops there it has been forced off the table. However, if the ball should run along the cushion and come back onto the bed of the table and stop there, this would be a perfectly fair stroke. If a ball runs along the cushion and drops into a pocket, it counts. Providing it was a ball on, it would be a legitimate stroke....

Hope this makes it clear.