Dings Final Frame decider and touching ball incident

[sprogbasket]

In the final frame decider Mike Wasley played a canny little snooker tight up behind the black. The ref had a look and did not call "touching ball" some moments later Ding closely examined the balls and the white appeared to be touching the black.

The ref explained it had not been touching when he had initially looked and then he moved the white a fraction of an inch away from the black- thereby affording Ding an easier escape at a very critical time in the match.


I assume the ref was treating the situation in a similar manner to when for eg player A plays a shot and a ball ( any ball) stops on the very edge of the pocket. Player B then comes to the table and whilst preparing for a shot the ball then drops in the pocket. The ref would just replace the ball and play continues.

I ask the question because I seem to remember the reverse happening in a match with Ronnie when he questioned the ref about a free ball and I don't think the ref replaced the ball- it was the incident when Ronnie told the ref that he was blind and needed new glasses. ...God bless Ronnie the diplomat.

Does anyone know the specific rule covering this issue (about ball being moved back - not about blind referees).

sprogbasket

[The Statman]

The rule states that, if the balls are inspected to be not touching and are later found to have settled together, the referee can replace the balls to their original situation to his satisfaction. The same if they were seen to be touching and had then drifted apart.

This comes under the rule covering Touching Ball (Sec. 3 Rule 8) and is therefore separate from the Ball On Edge Of Pocket situation, and handled in its own right.

As a footnote, it is worth noting that the referee would not have called Touching Ball even if they had been touching in the first place. Touching Ball would only be volunteered by the referee in relation to the cue-ball and the ball on, which of course would have been red in this instance. However, the player may ask the referee if the ball not on is touching, and the referee will state Yes or No.

[sprogbasket]

Nice one Statman...when I referred to the ball on edge of pocket by way of example I was trying to rationalise the principle of the matter rather than relate to specific rules.....amazing how many of us play the game and do not have even a copy of the rule book to refer to.


Thanks again....I did find the incident itself to be very interesting and a potential tester for the ref....initially though Wasley was being hard done to- do you remember the Ronnie incident ?.

sprogbasket

[The Statman]

Yes I realised you were only making comparisons.

This aspect was part of the September 1995 rewrite of the rules, and actually only referred to the cue-ball being not touching and later becoming touching. It was accepted that the opposite case was to be treated the same, and that is now reflected since the 2012 reprint.

I think the difference from the O'Sullivan - Leo Scullion incident was that O'Sullivan thought that the ball was touching but the referee saw otherwise; and the later situation was the same as the referee had previously seen - so he had no reason to reposition anything.

[sprogbasket]

Impressive -thanks...I did feel for Leo Scullion....Ronnie was quite scalding in his annoyance.

The refs do a superb job and thankfully (usually) get the respect they deserve, unlike some of the pro footie refs who are on a hiding to nothing.

[scottley]

Its an interesting rule this, i remember a shot a while back when the ref was trying to replace the balls after a foul and a miss, i think it was Shaun Murphy and he just could'nt get the white back in its original position of touching the green on the baulk cushion because they just wouldn't stick together, in the end he had to get them as close together as he could and Shaun had to play the shot not touching, he had'nt gained any advantage but it would be interesting to see a situation arise where the ref had to get them touching but couldn't, i wonder what they would do? Especially if it was crucial they where touching, sometimes they just won't stick together.

[sprogbasket]

Yeah - at our club some idiots bang the colours on to their spots causing small indentations in the slate which means the colours then tend to roll back into the divet and/or jump when you pot them from their spots..don't suppose the pros suffer from this problem.

[The Statman]

I think the referee might be tempted to give one of them a (very gentle!) knock to try to get them to stay in place - or alternatively move both balls just slightly to a position where they would settle touching, making sure the player neither gained nor lost any advantage in angles available etc.

In the end, probably best to just put them as close to touching as possible, but leaving the same amount of cushion available for the player to hit. (Obviously that would make more angles available in the other direction, but you'd just have to do the best you could to not disadvantage either player.)

[The Statman]

Apologies sprogbasket, I edited your post by accidentally pressing Edit rather than Reply (as a moderator, I have this option). I think I've restored it to your original comments!

[sprogbasket]

No probs..appears as I intended.

[SnkrRef]

The other option available to the referee if he can't replace balls in a touching position is to get them as close as possible at tell the striker to treat them as if they are touching. By doing so he's implying that the player must play away and not play the offending ball!

[DandyA]

The other option available to the referee if he can't replace balls in a touching position is to get them as close as possible at tell the striker to treat them as if they are touching. By doing so he's implying that the player must play away and not play the offending ball!

that's interesting ... can you quote the rule that covers that please ...

[SnkrRef]

that's interesting ... can you quote the rule that covers that please ...

It's not stated in the rules, but if all else failed, it's an option I would be happy to use.