The Elbow " To drop or not"

[CJ Kumz213]

Hey people. Quick question here. I wanna know what is the difference in the mechanics between these two different strokes. Why I am asking is because in Ronnie's coaching video he says hit using the elbow and yet his elbow drops, just like Selby, Shaun Murphy and Stephen Lee. Then when it comes to Robertson, Ding and Judd Trump they don't drop there elbows but they also hit from the elbow... So question is if they all hit from their elbows, why do other players have more severe elbow drops??? Sorry for the long question

[Tiger800]

Just know that if you drop after cue ball contact it has no effect on the outcome so it's just a matter of individual choice if it feels natural then that's fine but doing it because others do is probably not a good idea.

[CJ Kumz213]

Just know that if you drop after cue ball contact it has no effect on the outcome so it's just a matter of individual choice if it feels natural then that's fine but doing it because others do is probably not a good idea.

Thanks. I have about a 3 inch elbow drop myself and don't really wanna alter my stroke. I think it drops after the striking of the cueball, I just have to clarify that. My main question though is what makes others completely not drop the elbow vs dropping it. Is there an extra set of muscles that should be used??

[Terry Davidson]

Thanks. I have about a 3 inch elbow drop myself and don't really wanna alter my stroke. I think it drops after the striking of the cueball, I just have to clarify that. My main question though is what makes others completely not drop the elbow vs dropping it. Is there an extra set of muscles that should be used??

I believe it's whatever a player develops when he was young and learning the game. Trying to change it once you are an adult and have played for a few years is going to be a tough thing to do.

The only problem with a player who drops his elbow is it's fine with no problems as long as it's done after the strike (as has been said above) HOWEVER especially on power shots it does tend to 'creep up' in the delivery to where it starts to happen either at or just before the strike and this means the shoulder muscle is getting involved in the delivery of the cue and that will take the cue off-line.

I try and limit my elbow drop as much as possible to prevent that creeping up and I think that does improve my accuracy especially on long pots.

There are no extra muscles involved when you don't drop the elbow just extra muscles when you do drop it. One of the 'secrets' of a good cueing technique is to have the least amount of moving parts involved so there's less to coordinate as any person's hand/eye coordination will vary from day to day as it depends on so many things.

Terry

[Tiger800]

as Terry mentioned you see it more on power shots, that extra energy has to be absorbed somewhere and often it's the arms way of coming to a stop without hurting your joints it is just cushioning the forearm. I think it's also possible that it may help reduce tension in the forearm cause the forearm is not preparing to stop at the end of the stroke and that maybe why some people seem to benefit from it.
Terry, any experience with this aspect?

[Terry Davidson]

as Terry mentioned you see it more on power shots, that extra energy has to be absorbed somewhere and often it's the arms way of coming to a stop without hurting your joints it is just cushioning the forearm. I think it's also possible that it may help reduce tension in the forearm cause the forearm is not preparing to stop at the end of the stroke and that maybe why some people seem to benefit from it.
Terry, any experience with this aspect?

I had a good elbow drop which I thought was at the end of the delivery but when I videoed myself I found I was dropping the elbow prematurely and actually using the shoulder muscle to drive the cue. I then went to work on trying to limit or even eliminate the elbow drop and I found my accuracy, especially on long pots, really iomproved so I've stuck with keeping the elbow up as much as possible.

As for the elbow drop on power shots I've found I still do it and I believe it has more to do with the cue being accelerated and trying to keep the delivery smooth by allowing just a little more time to stop the grip hand so you don't get that shudder on the delivery and it also makes sure you do accelerate all the way to the end of the delivery.

But for me, the elbow drop will 'creep up' in the delivery and I've found a lot of my students with the elbow drop do the same thing and it's really bad on power shots where they grip the cue too tight in order to accelerate it and get the more powerful shoulder muscle involved to get even more acceleration, but all of that is at the cost of accuracy. No good to screw back 6ft if you miss the pot anyway. Better to make the pot and screw back a little less, at least you're still at the table.

Terry

[CJ Kumz213]

as Terry mentioned you see it more on power shots, that extra energy has to be absorbed somewhere and often it's the arms way of coming to a stop without hurting your joints it is just cushioning the forearm. I think it's also possible that it may help reduce tension in the forearm cause the forearm is not preparing to stop at the end of the stroke and that maybe why some people seem to benefit from it.
Terry, any experience with this aspect?

Makes a lot of sense the way you have put it (cushioning the forearm). Thanks great info

[CJ Kumz213]

I had a good elbow drop which I thought was at the end of the delivery but when I videoed myself I found I was dropping the elbow prematurely and actually using the shoulder muscle to drive the cue. I then went to work on trying to limit or even eliminate the elbow drop and I found my accuracy, especially on long pots, really iomproved so I've stuck with keeping the elbow up as much as possible.

As for the elbow drop on power shots I've found I still do it and I believe it has more to do with the cue being accelerated and trying to keep the delivery smooth by allowing just a little more time to stop the grip hand so you don't get that shudder on the delivery and it also makes sure you do accelerate all the way to the end of the delivery.

But for me, the elbow drop will 'creep up' in the delivery and I've found a lot of my students with the elbow drop do the same thing and it's really bad on power shots where they grip the cue too tight in order to accelerate it and get the more powerful shoulder muscle involved to get even more acceleration, but all of that is at the cost of accuracy. No good to screw back 6ft if you miss the pot anyway. Better to make the pot and screw back a little less, at least you're still at the table.

Terry

Thanks Terry you always get to answer my questions fully. I will try my best to work on keeping the elbow up and stroking with forearm only. The simpler the better. So from your point of view, this means Ronnie, Murphy and Stephen Lee all use the shoulder muscle to drive the cue??

[itsnoteasy]

I had a good elbow drop which I thought was at the end of the delivery but when I videoed myself I found I was dropping the elbow prematurely and actually using the shoulder muscle to drive the cue. I then went to work on trying to limit or even eliminate the elbow drop and I found my accuracy, especially on long pots, really iomproved so I've stuck with keeping the elbow up as much as possible.

As for the elbow drop on power shots I've found I still do it and I believe it has more to do with the cue being accelerated and trying to keep the delivery smooth by allowing just a little more time to stop the grip hand so you don't get that shudder on the delivery and it also makes sure you do accelerate all the way to the end of the delivery.

But for me, the elbow drop will 'creep up' in the delivery and I've found a lot of my students with the elbow drop do the same thing and it's really bad on power shots where they grip the cue too tight in order to accelerate it and get the more powerful shoulder muscle involved to get even more acceleration, but all of that is at the cost of accuracy. No good to screw back 6ft if you miss the pot anyway. Better to make the pot and screw back a little less, at least you're still at the table.

Terry

Very good point there Terry, I would say most learners if not all, or average club players ,generally hit the ball way too hard, unfortunately I can be in that group sometimes, especially if I'm not playing well, or maybe that's why I'm not playing well lol, but when in the groove everything gets stroked, but I get the white around the table just fine,it's very strange.

[Terry Davidson]

Thanks Terry you always get to answer my questions fully. I will try my best to work on keeping the elbow up and stroking with forearm only. The simpler the better. So from your point of view, this means Ronnie, Murphy and Stephen Lee all use the shoulder muscle to drive the cue??

Not saying that at all. They obviously have perfected their timing where the elbow drops consistently AFTER the strike

Terry

[Tiger800]

But for me, the elbow drop will 'creep up' in the delivery and I've found a lot of my students with the elbow drop do the same thing and it's really bad on power shots where they grip the cue too tight in order to accelerate it and get the more powerful shoulder muscle involved to get even more acceleration, but all of that is at the cost of accuracy. No good to screw back 6ft if you miss the pot anyway. Better to make the pot and screw back a little less, at least you're still at the table.

Terry

What they don't know is that the way to generate more cue speed is with relaxed muscles, ask any tennis coach how to get more racket head speed, relaxed muscles is key to so many elements of the stroke any tension is the killer

[bolton-cueman]

Not saying that at all. They obviously have perfected their timing where the elbow drops consistently AFTER the strike

Terry

I introduced an elbow drop as part of my (ongoing) rebuilding of my action and I have to say it's been a positive experience so far.

as you said there is a price to pay on long or power shots when you drop your elbow unless you hit the ball perfectly (we're not all Ronnie!) but, in a roundabout way, it's made me concentrate on a smoother, softer delivery when performing power shots - one of my weak points.

It may not be for everyone but having a drop / drive / whatever you want to call it has definitely worked for me

[CJ Kumz213]

Not saying that at all. They obviously have perfected their timing where the elbow drops consistently AFTER the strike

Terry

Sorry Terry don't get me wrong. Was just wondering why the 'del drive' users drop there elbow so agressively.

[CJ Kumz213]

I introduced an elbow drop as part of my (ongoing) rebuilding of my action and I have to say it's been a positive experience so far.

as you said there is a price to pay on long or power shots when you drop your elbow unless you hit the ball perfectly (we're not all Ronnie!) but, in a roundabout way, it's made me concentrate on a smoother, softer delivery when performing power shots - one of my weak points.

It may not be for everyone but having a drop / drive / whatever you want to call it has definitely worked for me

Are you using the 'del drive'??

[Terry Davidson]

Sorry Terry don't get me wrong. Was just wondering why the 'del drive' users drop there elbow so agressively.

The 'Dell Drive' is just a way of saying accelerate through the cueball. I assume Del believes if a player has an elbow drop he will do this more naturally and achieve more power (not sure about accuracy though). I don't advocate it as both with my students and myself it tends to encourage using the shoulder muscle to accelerate the cue more which shows up as dropping the elbow.

I believe the power in a shot should come from the length of the backswing. If a player doing a power shot backswings the cue 9" getting the ferrule back to the 'V' of the bridge I believe that 9" will provide all the room he needs to accelerate the cue any amount.

I note Trump and even Ronnie a lot of the time don't drop their elbows and with Trump it's on a power shot, but both of them use a longer backswing.

Terry