What is a maximum?

[davis_greatest]

you canot start a break with a yellow as a yellow under no surcanstance............

if you are put back then the ball you potted ie the red is back as part of the break because you have been put back in to the position you left the table ie potted red now going for a colour........

i know its unusuall and i cant remember it happening but that is the rules as it stands i think or if thats not the rule it should be the rule..................

The previous red (or in this case, free ball acting as a red) does not count as part of the break. The break would commence with the yellow (in scenario (h)) or black (in scenario (i)).

The rule for a Foul and a Miss in the particular case that I described is as per section 3 of the rules, rule 14(a)(iii), namely that:

"After a foul and a miss has been called, the next player may request the offender to play again ... in which ... case the ball on shall be the same as it was prior to the last stroke made, namely .... a colour of the striker’s choice, where the ball on was a colour after a Red had been potted."

[davis_greatest]

I think I see where d_g is going with this, perhaps it may be easier to turn the question round.

However it is achieved, if a player manages the 15 red, 15 black and 6 colour sequence (147) and if at the start of his visit, explained ad nauseam, adds points to his overall score then are we saying that this disqualifies his "147" from being a maximum?

That would be as per scenario (c) in the opening post of this thread, and I believe that The Statman's view is that that would not be classed as a maximum (however unfair that may seem!).

[moglet]

Mmmm, I'm lost....the law is proverbially as the ass. I would expect the rules to cover visits of more than 147 and qualify them as maximums. I apologise for the contradiction in terms.

That is, if the normal 147 sequence was part of the break, but then again........

[wildJONESEYE]

The previous red (or in this case, free ball acting as a red) does not count as part of the break. The break would commence with the yellow (in scenario (h)) or black (in scenario (i)).

The rule for a Foul and a Miss in the particular case that I described is as per section 3 of the rules, rule 14(a)(iii), namely that:

"After a foul and a miss has been called, the next player may request the offender to play again ... in which ... case the ball on shall be the same as it was prior to the last stroke made, namely .... a colour of the striker’s choice, where the ball on was a colour after a Red had been potted."

yes but if the oponement puts a player back in after a foul stroke to the point the foul occured everything is going back.....the balls that moved in exactly the same position therefore the standing of the frame should also go back meaning the player had potted a red and now on a colour ie in this case the yellow..................

they cant have a rule to replace the balls if the situation the player is in changes........................

[davis_greatest]

yes but if the oponement puts a player back in after a foul stroke to the point the foul occured everything is going back.....the balls that moved in exactly the same position therefore the standing of the frame should also go back meaning the player had potted a red and now on a colour ie in this case the yellow..................

they cant have a rule to replace the balls if the situation the player is in changes........................

When Player B fouls, his visit terminates and Player A receives penalty points. If Player A chooses to put Player B in, Player B begins a new visit. His break begins on zero - it does not continue from the running score he was on prior to committing the foul.

For example, if I have just potted the blue on a break of 134, and then miscue, missing the pink entirely, and the referee calls foul and a miss, and you put me in again, then if I pot the pink, I will be on a break of 6. I am not on a break of 140, still on for the maximum.

[wildJONESEYE]

i understand what you say ..............but if you replace the balls suerly the whole frame should go in reverse.................

[moglet]

......if The Statman is right and I've no reason to doubt it, it is down to scoring opportunity so unless there is some way of exceeding 155 then that has to be the free-ball maximum as opposed to the regular 147 and ought in between does not qualify.

Therefore case (a) in the opening post should qualify.

[davis_greatest]

......if The Statman is right and I've no reason to doubt it, it is down to scoring opportunity so unless there is some way of exceeding 155 then that has to be the free-ball maximum as opposed to the regular 147 and ought in between does not qualify.

In scenarios (h) and (i), then, when Player B returns to the table to commence his 2nd visit, his maximal scoring opportunity is 154 (black, then 15 x red-black, plus the 6 colours), so that ought to count as a maximum.

[wildJONESEYE]

thats why the rule is wrong about the situation of in theary being able to pot the colour first in a break so the maximum could be anything from 147 to 155 using that theary.....whitch cant be right and a good reason to change that rule.................

[moglet]

I tend to agree, is there not some definitive clarification of such scenarios in the rule book?

Such as what does qualify as a scoring visit.

[wildJONESEYE]

I tend to agree, is there not some definitive clarification of such scenarios in the rule book?

Such as what does qualify as a scoring visit.

its simple for me if you replace the balls you replace the situation and go back with the balls................or forget the miss rule compleatly and not replace the balls.....it seems to me under this scenario its as if they want theire cake and eat it......................

if player B puts player A back in and replace the balls its as they were before the foul SIMPLE.....

the desition is with player B what to do anyway .....put him back or make him take the shot from its position or take the shot on himself......

[moglet]

Yes, but if it is right that the player put back in starts his scoring visit with a colour he would have to choose to take the black (sc.i) to qualify for the highest scoring opportunity of 154? Would this be allowed if his originally nominated colour was not black?

[frameandfortunereturns]

You can talk until the 'cows come home' about different scenarios about simultaneous strikings, free balls and missing the colour, etc. but the fact remains that a 155 is possible in every frame and this is therefore the maximujm and 'only maximum'.

155 IS THE MAXIMUM BREAK.

Definition of maximum: The most possible, the absolute limit. Is this 147? No, it isn't! Ask any snooker playing Jamie! Burnett in match conditions and Cope in practice!

[davis_greatest]

Yes, but if it is right that the player put back in starts his scoring visit with a colour he would have to choose to take the black (sc.i) to qualify for the highest scoring opportunity of 154? Would this be allowed if his originally nominated colour was not black?

Yes, it would be allowed. When Player B returns to the table in scenarios (h) or (i), he may nominate whichever colour he chooses. It does not need to be the same as the colour he nominated on his previous (foul) shot.

[The Statman]

Yes, it would be allowed. When Player B returns to the table in scenarios (h) or (i), he may nominate whichever colour he chooses. It does not need to be the same as the colour he nominated on his previous (foul) shot.

Of course, it could be that you are snookered on all colours and on your second attempt on the same colour, you fluke it. But as you say, you can change your mind.

You can talk until the 'cows come home' about different scenarios about simultaneous strikings, free balls and missing the colour, etc. but the fact remains that a 155 is possible in every frame and this is therefore the maximujm and 'only maximum'.

155 IS THE MAXIMUM BREAK.

Definition of maximum: The most possible, the absolute limit. Is this 147? No, it isn't! Ask any snooker playing Jamie! Burnett in match conditions and Cope in practice!

However, you are reliant on circumstances beyond your control. 147 is the maximum that can be achieved without the aid of another person.