foul and a miss

[Rémy]

]14. Foul and a Miss
The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on. If the referee considers the Rule infringed, he shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless only the Black remains on the table, or a situation exists where it is impossible to hit the ball on. In the latter case it must be assumed the striker is attempting to hit the ball on provided that he plays, directly or indirectly, in the direction of the ball on with sufficient strength, in the referee’s opinion, to have reached the ball on but the obstructing ball or balls.[/I]

Here is the question :
Had a game today and a friend got stuck into the reds after potting one.
He was in the exact situation described in the rule, as there was no way out of the bunch without hitting a red.
BUT, there also was a touching ball on a red.
The question was (and still is) : can he name a color behind the touching ball as the ball on and stroke in its direction with sufficient strength, or does he have to chose another color (or direction and strength) and strike away from the touching ball

I said he couldn't regarding that rule :
(d) If the cue-ball comes to rest touching or nearly touching a ball that is not on, the referee, if asked whether it is touching, will answer YES or NO. The striker must play away without disturbing it as above but must frst hit a ball that is on.
But he was saying that as the rule 14 stated that a foul was "allowed" in that situation, he probably could pushing the touching ball....
Any thoughts ??

[snookerdad]

The short answer is 'yes', he can.

Tim Dunkley (World Snooker coach)

[SnkrRef]

Imagine a slightly different scenario. After potting a red the cue ball has come to rest in the jaws of a corner pocket, and another red has come to rest in front of it and touching it. In that case it is clear that to comply with s3.14 the player would have to play in the direction of the touching ball (otherwise it would be into the pocket and that could be called a miss).

So, in my opinion, yes a push shot can be played in the OP's scenario. Two fouls will have been committed: first hitting a ball not on and playing a push shot. The penalty would be dependent on which colour the striker had nominated.

If after potting a colour and the player was on a red and he was surrounded by colours, then the penalty would be the higher of the ball pushed or the ball on.

[Rémy]

Thank you for the answers, although they don't go my way :-)
I can only agree with your second scenario... The fact that he had the opportunity of moving away from the touching ball made me think he had to, regarding the last rule...

The fact is, in our case, he had a significant advantage of playing the push, as a color was just behind it and he could (quite) easily stay safe in the bunch.
Had he play away from the touching ball, he would have been forced to play much harder and so, probably leave a few reds on...

I guess we'll never see the case again anyway ;-)

[itsnoteasy]

In that situation that does surprise me, if he can play away I would have thought he would have to, I don't get how you can chose to play a push shot when there is another shot on. The situation trapped in the pocket is fair enough as there is no alternative.
You learn something new every day.

[sharkster63]

If it is impossible to get out, should it not be a seven point foul.?

[sharkster63]

I think they are both intentional fouls, touching or not. Its just a matter of not being able to roll up to a red and play safe, he must be crafty and try to play safe with pace. lol

[DeanH]

If it is impossible to get out, should it not be a seven point foul.?

If no declaration of colour was made, then yes seven penalty points,
If a declaration of colour was made then the penalty points would be the value of the ball on or if a ball not on is contacted first then that value if higher.
If on Red, then four or if a ball not on is contacted first then that value if higher.

[muzicman147]

I think they are both intentional fouls, touching or not. Its just a matter of not being able to roll up to a red and play safe, he must be crafty and try to play safe with pace. lol

You're not allowed to just roll up to a red, you must hit the white hard enough so that it would (if it could ) reach the colour you've called or its a foul.

[SnkrRef]

You're not allowed to just roll up to a red, you must hit the white hard enough so that it would (if it could ) reach the colour you've called or its a foul.

You've missed three words off the end of that... "and a miss". It will always be a foul, but if you haven't attempted to play the shot with sufficient strength to have hit a colour then a Miss will be called.

[muzicman147]

You've missed three words off the end of that... "and a miss". It will always be a foul, but if you haven't attempted to play the shot with sufficient strength to have hit a colour then a Miss will be called.

Your right it should be, and a miss, But I don't play well enough to include the miss rule !!!

[sharkster63]

This is a very good example of the requirement to improve the rules, I would change rule, if he put himself in that situation were it is impossible to hit a colour it would be 7 point foul and automatic miss, this way no way to get advantage in a self made situation, also give opponent choice of ball in hand in half circle. If its impossible to hit a red then rules remain the same.

[SnkrRef]

This is a very good example of the requirement to improve the rules, I would change rule, if he put himself in that situation were it is impossible to hit a colour it would be 7 point foul and automatic miss, this way no way to get advantage in a self made situation, also give opponent choice of ball in hand in half circle. If its impossible to hit a red then rules remain the same.

Personally I think this change to the rules, made with the introduction of the September 1995 rule book, is perfectly sensible, and really can't see any need to change it. It is certainly a lot better than what was there before.

You refer to a situation of his own making... but what the player has come to the table to find himself in that position. Would you still do the same as you suggest?

[sharkster63]

I cannot see this happening it would be impossible to be surrounded by reds and needing to hit a colour unless you put yourself there.

[SnkrRef]

I cannot see this happening it would be impossible to be surrounded by reds and needing to hit a colour unless you put yourself there.

But what if you coem to the table, ona red, and surrounded by colours? What's the difference?