Foul shot or not?

[Shockerz]

In Friday's league game, a guy potted a long red screwed into the bottom of the pack so the white finished between the pink and black (both on their spots).

Hi only real option was black but couldn't reach it as it would be 11 foot away from the bulk end and reds on each cushion for sideways.

What he did was to stand behind the black, lean over it with the butt of his cue past the white and pull the butt back towards him into the white knocking it onto the black.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Apparently an official snooker ref playing in another league had done it and said it was a legal shot.

Looking at the rules (WPBSA) it talks about striking the cue ball with the tip of the cue but doesn't say whether this means the tip as in (something stuck on the end of a cue) or the tip meaning the end point of something.

Interested in your thoughts. He said he could chalk his butt, turn it around and call it the tip, interesting...........

[Bigmeek]

Foul I would say. Tip means tip for the purposes of the rules and NOT end. He should have played the shot using the tip end and that would have been legal. Saw Shaun Murphy do this a few times.

[fredkite]

Definite foul, from the official rules -

6. Stroke
(a) A stroke is made when the striker strikes the cue-ball with the tip of the cue.

[DeanH]

Foul, correct as Fred states a stroke is not played by anything other than the tip of the cue.
Now if the player had held the cue in the opposite manner so that the tip hit the cue ball, no foul; more awkward but not a foul
I have seen others play such as a shot with the cue "away" from them but they did play with the tip.

[Shockerz]

Yeah that's what I thought, tip to me is the stuck on part of the cue, not just the end. Interesting that the guy he got it from was an official ref who he saw do it in a match.

[Londonlad147]

It's funny, I was talking to a referee only today who'd seen this happen in a league match recently, and he'd rightl;y decided it was a foul.

Other than when you're moving a cue ball which is in hand, if you otherwise touch any ball in play at all, with anything (be it a hair on your arm, your chalk, or the butt of a cue), or the cue ball with anything other than the tip of the cue then it is a foul, as has already been confirmed.

[MikeTheBigMonster]

using the tip to strike the cueball. but that could be heavy when the cut butt is lifted high in front.
another way to do this is to make another version of cue with very short length just for this purpose haha

[DeanH]

I did say it would be awkward and no reason not to hold with both hands

As long as the cue is at least 3ft in length, it is allowed - as you probably already know, back in 1938 Alec Brown, when stuck in the pack of reds, produced from his shirt pocket a cue the length of a pen to play the shot. It was called a foul as not in the spirit of the game; the Billiards Association and Control Council immediately (and I mean in weeks after) annouced the minimum 3ft rule

[billabong]

using the tip to strike the cueball. but that could be heavy when the cut butt is lifted high in front.
another way to do this is to make another version of cue with very short length just for this purpose haha

Just remember you are not allowed an Alec Brown style cue ( about 5" long ). Cue must be at least 36" soon after that incident.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...liards&f=false


OOps sorry Dean, two of us scribbling away at the same time . .

[DeanH]

..........

[LittleMissAlexa]

what if the tip is an overhanging one and its dragged back with the tip?

[mythman69]

Foul I would say. Tip means tip for the purposes of the rules and NOT end. He should have played the shot using the tip end and that would have been legal. Saw Shaun Murphy do this a few times.

I did a shot like this last week when I got stuck in the pack and had to hit the black (only ball on). I just leaned over the black and made sure my cue didn't hit the light fitting and managed to hit the cue ball onto the black using the tip. The other player then started to clean up.

Still no 147s for me last week.

[DeanH]

what if the tip is an overhanging one and its dragged back with the tip?

if the tip, cue ball and object ball come in contact all together, then a "push shot" - foul
if the player is able to hit the cue ball with the edge to get the cue ball to move - then possibly not a foul - probably difficult for the ref to see though.

I have asked before what if a player (playing in normal configuration not like the OP) pushes the tip on to the cue ball for some distance - blatantly - but removes the tip before the cue ball contacts the object ball? To me that would constitute a literal "push shot" as the cue ball is not "hit" by the tip but pushed (dragged) along.

[Londonlad147]

if the tip, cue ball and object ball come in contact all together, then a "push shot" - foul
if the player is able to hit the cue ball with the edge to get the cue ball to move - then possibly not a foul - probably difficult for the ref to see though.

I have asked before what if a player (playing in normal configuration not like the OP) pushes the tip on to the cue ball for some distance - blatantly - but removes the tip before the cue ball contacts the object ball? To me that would constitute a literal "push shot" as the cue ball is not "hit" by the tip but pushed (dragged) along.

Strictly speaking EVERY stroke is a push stroke, because s2.19 defines a push stroke as:

19. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball:
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion; or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

If one looks at ultra slow motion pics, then the cue tip will virtually always be in contact with the cue ball still after it has started its forward motion. Where it is blatant, as you describe, then there is no doubt that it is a push shot.

[DeanH]

Foul shot or not?

yep that is what I was alluding to, thanks for the expansion