Ball in hand: Where to put the cue ball when "D" is occupied?

[kligu]

A theoretical question that came to my mind while playing a frame:
Can the 15 reds and six colours be put within the "D" in such a way that the white cannot be placed within the "D" without touching or moving another ball? I don't think they can but I don't know for sure. Does anyone here know for sure? If that situation can occur is it mentioned in the official rules?
Even if this weird situation was theoretically possible it is highly unlikely to ever occur while playing a frame. But I am just wondering...

[Master Blaster]

A theoretical question that came to my mind while playing a frame:
Can the 15 reds and six colours be put within the "D" in such a way that the white cannot be placed within the "D" without touching or moving another ball? I don't think they can but I don't know for sure. Does anyone here know for sure? If that situation can occur is it mentioned in the official rules?
Even if this weird situation was theoretically possible it is highly unlikely to ever occur while playing a frame. But I am just wondering...

I've never seen or know this to occur, anyone? With the reds at the other end of the table it's highly unlikely.

[DeanH]

Ball in hand: Where to put the cue ball when "D" is occupied?

Theoretically it could be poosible to occupy the D with a number of balls such that the ball in hand cue ball could not be placed anywhere in the D.
Highly unlikely to happen though
and because of that low probability the scenario is not covered in the rules and also not in the SRA snooker rules guidance notes.
But I have a feeling that this scenario has been asked before many moons ago, can't find the thread at the mo

[Londonlad147]

Thinking about it I *think* it is possible to fill the D with object balls leaving no room to place the cue ball.

The dimensions of the D are radius 292mm (ie 594mm diameter) and each ball is 52.2mm.Allowing for the overhang of balls across the D that means that, in theory, 12 balls could be placed on the baulk line within the D. Spacing them out so that there is just less than a ball's width between them, means you could probably get away with 6 with their noses just beyond the centre of the baulk line such that nothing can be placed on the line itself.

In theory you could have six rows of balls in the D, but I *think* you would only need four. If the front row are almost a ball apart from each other, then the second row would need to be almost half a ball behind the front row, and so on for the rows behind. You might be able to fill the D with 18 object balls.

However, since this is such an unlikely occurrence it is not covered in the rules!

[Londonlad147]

In a similar vein it is also possible to completely fill the centre line of the table between the blue spot and the top cushion so that the blue could not be spotted on the centre line between blue spot and top cushion. The rules provide for the pink or black being spotted below the pink spot if all space is occupied, and in theory the could be baulk side of the blue spot, but there is no mention of doing this for the blue.

[The Statman]

Thinking about it I *think* it is possible to fill the D with object balls leaving no room to place the cue ball.

The dimensions of the D are radius 292mm (ie 594mm diameter) and each ball is 52.2mm.Allowing for the overhang of balls across the D that means that, in theory, 12 balls could be placed on the baulk line within the D. Spacing them out so that there is just less than a ball's width between them, means you could probably get away with 6 with their noses just beyond the centre of the baulk line such that nothing can be placed on the line itself.

In theory you could have six rows of balls in the D, but I *think* you would only need four. If the front row are almost a ball apart from each other, then the second row would need to be almost half a ball behind the front row, and so on for the rows behind. You might be able to fill the D with 18 object balls.

However, since this is such an unlikely occurrence it is not covered in the rules!

The easiest thing to do is - try it! It has been tried and, surprisingly, however you try to fill the D with 21 balls, there is plenty of room to place the 22nd!

[Ramon]

Theoretically it could be poosible to occupy the D with a number of balls such that the ball in hand cue ball could not be placed anywhere in the D.
Highly unlikely to happen though
and because of that low probability the scenario is not covered in the rules and also not in the SRA snooker rules guidance notes.
But I have a feeling that this scenario has been asked before many moons ago, can't find the thread at the mo

Yeah ,,,
theoritically you can even hang an baby elephant on the top of mountain Everest!

[sfmcar]

different scenario but a realistic chance of it happening because it has when i was playing a few months ago. I cut a red into corner pocket and the white burst into the pack. I was left with an impossible shot as the white was surrounded by 3 reds leaving no gap to play the cueball past them at any angle. Obviously i cant then make a genuine attempt to play a colour as its impossible. Im sure this is probably covered in the rules, cheers

[billabong]

different scenario but a realistic chance of it happening because it has when i was playing a few months ago. I cut a red into corner pocket and the white burst into the pack. I was left with an impossible shot as the white was surrounded by 3 reds leaving no gap to play the cueball past them at any angle. Obviously i cant then make a genuine attempt to play a colour as its impossible. Im sure this is probably covered in the rules, cheers

I thought in this instance, you need to play towards your nominated colour, in a speed and direction that the ref thinks would hit it, IF the red(s) wasn't in the path.

could be wrong though. . . . often am

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[sfmcar]

I thought in this instance, you need to play towards your nominated colour, in a speed and direction that the ref thinks would hit it, IF the red(s) wasn't in the path.

could be wrong though. . . . often am

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sounds right. I was actually practicing with an ex pro at the time and when he didnt know I was stumped. He was our go to person about any of the rules!

[DeanH]

different scenario but a realistic chance of it happening because it has when i was playing a few months ago. I cut a red into corner pocket and the white burst into the pack. I was left with an impossible shot as the white was surrounded by 3 reds leaving no gap to play the cueball past them at any angle. Obviously i cant then make a genuine attempt to play a colour as its impossible. Im sure this is probably covered in the rules, cheers

I thought in this instance, you need to play towards your nominated colour, in a speed and direction that the ref thinks would hit it, IF the red(s) wasn't in the path.

could be wrong though. . . . often am

no not wrong

[Londonlad147]

Yes, if a ball on is 'impossible' to hit then as long as you play towards it either directly OR indirectly (eg off a cushion) with sufficient strength to have hit the ball on had the obstructing ball(s) not been there, then it will simply be a foul and not a miss.

[Londonlad147]

Further to my last post, what this means that it is NOT an allowable shot if you're stuck in the jaws of the pocket, to simply play the cue ball into the pocket.

[DeanH]

Back to the original scenario - Is it possible for the 21 object balls on a snooker table to completely fill the D so that it is impossible for the cue ball to be placed anywhere within the D?
Answer - NO
As you can see from the diagram, 29 object balls are required to fill the D in such a manner that the cue ball cannot be placed without interfering with at least one object ball.
So with only 21 object balls there will always be space in the D for the cue ball to be placed within the D without interfering with any object ball.
So I take back my comment that theoretically it is possible...

I know the image in places may look like there is a bigger space between some of them but I think this is just the rendering of the jpg.
Anyway, I will get back to watching the match :biggrin:

[kligu]

Thanks for clearing that! Enjoy the match! Hoping for a Wilson comeback but I can't see it coming...